You Make the Call - Sep 8

tidehawk · September 8th, 2008, 09:05 AM

It is 4th and 5 from the kicking team's 45 yd line. K punts the ball short but past the neutral zone. The receiving team muffs the ball and it goes back behind the neutral zone. A member of the kicking team picks up the ball and throws a forward pass which is completed to the receiving team's 40 yd line. Is this legal?

bama119 · September 8th, 2008, 10:29 AM

Tough question. I would guess not legal because the ball crossed the line of scrimmage before being muffed.

RT3413 · September 8th, 2008, 10:39 AM

I would also guess not legal since the ball went past the LOS.

However, I am stuck on possession. Since the R team muffed it and then K picked it up, they established possession. But the ball had not traveled past the first down mark so I am not sure if it is a turnover on downs or 1st and 20 (after the penalty for illegal forward pass) from the spot of the pass?

kfo9494 · September 8th, 2008, 11:28 AM

Since K legally recovered the kick behind the line (and could advance) and has not thrown a pass during the down,--I am going to say that a forward pass can be thrown.

luvthat_TIDE · September 8th, 2008, 01:08 PM

No, but the kicking team retains the ball. 1st and 10. Can't advance a fumbled punt.

tidehawk · September 8th, 2008, 03:51 PM

	Quote:	luvthat_TIDE
	No, but the kicking team retains the ball. 1st and 10. Can't advance a fumbled punt.

Read the scenario again...there was not a fumble.

bamajake · September 8th, 2008, 05:14 PM

Interesting scenario Tidehawk. This could definitely happen in a game and no matter what call is made, at least half of the people there will swear that the Ref blew it -- especially if he makes the correct call.

bamatex82 · September 8th, 2008, 11:34 PM

	Quote:	bama119
	Tough question. I would guess not legal because the ball crossed the line of scrimmage before being muffed.

I'm going with his answer...

tidehawk · September 9th, 2008, 08:56 AM

The pass is legal. In this scenario, since the ball was muffed and not fumbled, possession had not changed. It is first and 10 for K at the opponent's 40 yd line.

Now, had the kicking team had a lineman down field, the receiving team would accept a foul of ineligible receiver downfield, had the penalty stepped off, and replayed 4th down. There are all sorts of nuances in the rules that could come up. That's what makes officiating so interesting.

ROTYDE · September 9th, 2008, 09:24 AM

	Quote:	tidehawk
	It is 4th and 5 from the kicking team's 45 yd line. K punts the ball short but past the neutral zone. The receiving team muffs the ball and it goes back behind the neutral zone. A member of the kicking team picks up the ball and throws a forward pass which is completed to the receiving team's 40 yd line. Is this legal?

k has the ball. 1st down on the 40....

Jref · September 9th, 2008, 02:44 PM

Here are a few principles that will help you understand some of the knottier parts of officiating the kicking game:

(1) Once the receiving team touches the scrimmage kick beyond the LOS, it will be first down for whichever team is in possession at the end of the down.

(2) If the kick is picked up by the kicking team behind the LOS, they can run, kick, or pass just as if the ball had never been kicked. It doesn't matter if the ball ever crosses the LOS, or if the receiving team touches it -- it's the spot where the kicking team recovers the kick that matters.

(3) A muffed kick can't be advanced by the kicking team. A kick that is possessed by the receiving team and then fumbled is no longer a kick, but a fumble that can be advanced by either team.

Bama-94-00 · September 9th, 2008, 02:55 PM

	Quote:	Jref
	... (3) A muffed kick can't be advanced by the kicking team. A kick that is possessed by the receiving team and then fumbled is no longer a kick, but a fumble that can be advanced by either team.

In some cases a fumble can almost be a muff. What's the reasoning for the rule prohibiting returns of muffs? To prevent "cheap" TDs maybe. Thanks.

Jref · September 9th, 2008, 03:41 PM

	Quote:	Bama-94-00
	In some cases a fumble can almost be a muff. What's the reasoning for the rule prohibiting returns of muffs? To prevent "cheap" TDs maybe. Thanks.

I'm not sure. It may be for the sake of consistency, since the kicking team also can't advance a free kick (kickoff), even if it goes ten yards and hits the ground. They can recover, but not advance.

And, as always, remember that we discuss High School rules on this board, not NCAA or NFL. So what you see on Saturday or Sunday might not apply on Friday nights.