You Make the Call - October 6

[tidehawk]

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Sorry about the sabatical last week - it was a crazy & busy week for me. This is one I posted before but it always brings up good discussions:

Team Red has the ball on Team White's 25 yd line, 4th down and 8. The rb for Red runs on a sweep but goes out of bounds at the 20 yd line. A LB for White hits the RB late out of bounds. What should happen next?

[bamaump8]

	Quote:	tidehawk
	Sorry about the sabatical last week - it was a crazy & busy week for me. This is one I posted before but it always brings up good discussions: Team Red has the ball on Team White's 25 yd line, 4th down and 8. The rb for Red runs on a sweep but goes out of bounds at the 20 yd line. A LB for White hits the RB late out of bounds. What should happen next?

Dead ball personal foul. Ball goes to White, half the distance to the goal. White gets ball on the ten. I may be wrong about where the ball is placed, BUT, White gets the ball.

[edwd58]

Once red RB runs out of bounds it becomes a dead ball foul. So, I'm going with bamaump8, white gets the ball, 1st and 10 from around the 10. Since it seems clear cut, it is probably a trick question with a quirky exception hiding in there somewhere!

[RTR91man]

I agree with bamaump and edwd, but I also see that it is never stated that the whistle was blown. I don't know if that is taken for granted or if that is the trick that edwd suggest. I agree though.... white ball on the 10.

[Jref]

I don't think there's a trick involved.

The principle that Tidehawk was trying to illustrate is this:

If the same play had happened on 1st, 2nd or 3rd down, the 15-yd dead ball penalty would have placed the ball past the line-to-gain (LTG), thus giving Red a first down.

Since this play happened on 4th down, we look to see if the LTG has been reached before administering the dead ball penalty. In this case, Red has not reached the LTG, so the ball goes over to White on downs.

Now we administer the 15-yd penalty (or half the distance, in this case), set the chains, and it will be 1st-and-10 for White.

Also, had the personal foul penalty occurred before the play ended (live ball), we would administer the penalty before checking the LTG. In that case, Red would retain the ball, and have a 1st down.

[bamaump8]

	Quote:	RTR91man
	I agree with bamaump and edwd, but I also see that it is never stated that the whistle was blown. I don't know if that is taken for granted or if that is the trick that edwd suggest.

Just because the whistle hadn't been blown does not mean that the play is not over. There are a few things that can make the play dead, not just the whistle. Too many to name, but, so you know, just because a whistle may not have been blown, doesn't mean that the play is not over.

[tidehawk]

	Quote:	bamaump8
	Just because the whistle hadn't been blown does not mean that the play is not over. There are a few things that can make the play dead, not just the whistle. Too many to name, but, so you know, just because a whistle may not have been blown, doesn't mean that the play is not over.

Good job everyone. And yes, bamaump, you said it - the whistle does not kill end the play.

	Quote:	Jref
	I don't think there's a trick involved. The principle that Tidehawk was trying to illustrate is this: If the same play had happened on 1st, 2nd or 3rd down, the 15-yd dead ball penalty would have placed the ball past the line-to-gain (LTG), thus giving Red a first down. Since this play happened on 4th down, we look to see if the LTG has been reached before administering the dead ball penalty. In this case, Red has not reached the LTG, so the ball goes over to White on downs. Now we administer the 15-yd penalty (or half the distance, in this case), set the chains, and it will be 1st-and-10 for White. Also, had the personal foul penalty occurred before the play ended (live ball), we would administer the penalty before checking the LTG. In that case, Red would retain the ball, and have a 1st down.

Outstanding explanation. Thanks for taking the time to post it.