You Make the Call - Oct 13

tidehawk · October 13th, 2008, 01:25 PM

Prior to the snap on a scrimmage play, both the offense and defense notice that their respective teams on the field only have 10 players. Each HC notices and sends a player out on their side on the LOS to make 11. Both the O and D players are running parallel to the LOS getting on the field, but only make it out 5 yds before the ball is snapped. Is there a foul?

RTR91man · October 13th, 2008, 02:02 PM

I think a foul on the O for sending a man into late, but I am not too sure. Also, what about a motion penalty for the O?

NYBamaFan · October 13th, 2008, 02:20 PM

Ah, the old "waterboy" play. I think that they changed the rules to make this illegal years ago, but I am not sure. I think that the defense is fine, but the offense might get hit with a late substitution penalty of some sort. I will guess 5 yards...

tidehawk · October 13th, 2008, 02:31 PM

	Quote:	RTR91man
	I think a foul on the O for sending a man into late, but I am not too sure. Also, what about a motion penalty for the O?

We are assuming that the only player in motion is the one coming in late. Also, he is in motion parallel to the LOS.

bamajake · October 13th, 2008, 05:21 PM

TideHawk, I can see two problems for O. First, all offensive players must come set for a full second after a huddle or a snap. In this case, the sub didn't do so. That would make it an illegal shift. If I were working the wing on the side that he came in on, I would drop a flag for illegal formation because the sub didn't get inside of the 9 yard mark (the top of the numbers) at some point after the ready for play and before the snap. The defense is ok.

October 14th, 2008, 08:59 AM

Based on the game I attended Friday night, I'd say no penaltyanywhere?

tidehawk · October 14th, 2008, 01:07 PM

	Quote:	bamajake
	TideHawk, I can see two problems for O. First, all offensive players must come set for a full second after a huddle or a snap. In this case, the sub didn't do so. That would make it an illegal shift. If I were working the wing on the side that he came in on, I would drop a flag for illegal formation because the sub didn't get inside of the 9 yard mark (the top of the numbers) at some point after the ready for play and before the snap. The defense is ok.

The second part of your response is what I was trying to get at, jake. All offensive players have to be inside the 9 yd mark. You are also right in that the sub would not have been set for a second prior to motion. Both fouls would occur at the snap. jake, answer me this: would this be a double foul, or would the defense have to decline one foul and take the other (both are 5 yd penalties)?

And yes, the defense is OK.

Jref · October 14th, 2008, 01:50 PM

	Quote:	tidehawk
	The second part of your response is what I was trying to get at, jake. All offensive players have to be inside the 9 yd mark. You are also right in that the sub would not have been set for a second prior to motion. Both fouls would occur at the snap. jake, answer me this: would this be a double foul, or would the defense have to decline one foul and take the other (both are 5 yd penalties)? And yes, the defense is OK.

Double fouls occur when there is at least one live-ball foul against each team. Since the defense hasn't fouled, there's no double foul in this play.

Multiple fouls are two (or more) live-ball fouls against the same team. The offense has committed two live-ball fouls (illegal formation & illegal shift), so the defense gets it's choice of which to enforce.

In this play, it doesn't matter, since both are 5-yd penalties. If the offense also had been flagged for holding, the defense would decline both 5-yd penalties and choose to enforce the 10-yrd holding penalty, OR decline all fouls and take the result of the play.

bamaump8 · October 14th, 2008, 04:05 PM

	Quote:	jref
	double fouls occur when there is at least one live-ball foul against each team. Since the defense hasn't fouled, there's no double foul in this play. multiple fouls are two (or more) live-ball fouls against the same team. The offense has committed two live-ball fouls (illegal formation & illegal shift), so the defense gets it's choice of which to enforce. In this play, it doesn't matter, since both are 5-yd penalties. If the offense also had been flagged for holding, the defense would decline both 5-yd penalties and choose to enforce the 10-yrd holding penalty, or decline all fouls and take the result of the play.

jref is in the zone!!!!!!

tidehawk · October 14th, 2008, 04:14 PM

That's why jref wears the white hat...

bamatex82 · October 14th, 2008, 09:15 PM

I'm not following this one. Why is it okay for the D, but not for the O? I thought this would be illegal substitution on both squads.

Jref · October 15th, 2008, 08:24 AM

	Quote:	bamatex82
	I'm not following this one. Why is it okay for the D, but not for the O? I thought this would be illegal substitution on both squads.

It's to maintain the balance between offense and defense.

The purpose for the rule requiring all A (offensive) players to be between the numbers is so that the defense can identify (and cover) the wideouts in the no-huddle spread formation, and also to prevent the old "water bucket" or "hideout" play, where the offense sneaks a player a step or two onto the field at the last second before the snap.

The defense is under no such restrictions for obvious reasons.