You Make The Call

bamajake · August 26th, 2009, 03:40 PM

Does anyone know anything about TideHawk? I haven't heard anything from him in a while. In his honor I will post a few YMTCs. This first one deals with a new rule in high school football:

Red 22 is running with the ball in the open field. White 44 reaches out and grabs him by the back collar of the shoulder pads and sharply pulls him to the ground at the White 45. As White 44 pulls Red 22's collar and before Red 22 goes down, he loses possession of the ball and White 12 recovers at the White 40. Who gets the ball and where?

MegaVars · August 26th, 2009, 04:05 PM

I`ll take a stab and say Red ball at the White 30 due to a fifteen yard horse collar penalty that also negates the fumble.

VolFan1 · August 26th, 2009, 07:18 PM

White ball at the 40...we didn't technically have a horse collar since the runner was never tackled, he was no longer the runner once he fumbled.

bamajake · August 26th, 2009, 08:40 PM

VolFan, you must be a high school football official. In a stroke of sheer genius, the National Federation of High Schools has specifically determined that if the runner fumbles before he goes down he is not a runner and therefore can't be horse collared. The same thing applies if the runner goes out of bounds or crosses the goal line before he is pulled down.

This will probably cause some confusion, especially among fans who don't have access to the Rules Book and the Case Book that tells us how to call this. It is also important to note that if a defender grabs the runner by the front of the collar it is legal. In addition, if the defender grabs the runner by the side or back of the collar and the runner goes down forward or if another defender hits the player and the hit is what took him down and not the collar, it is legal. Oh, one more thing. It must be a "runner," i.e., a ball carrier for it to be an illegal horse collar.

I will try to post a new YMTC each week. Good luck to all on Friday.

VolFan1 · August 26th, 2009, 09:54 PM

I love trying to answer stuff like this

I especially like ones like this that could really happen. It is the ones that are far fetched but are still rules that are VERY confusing.

Keep them coming, this one thing I had saw that I really liked here when I first joined while browsing older threads.

Jref · August 27th, 2009, 11:19 AM

Please note that, although this is not technically a horse-collar foul, you might still have a personal foul on this play. If so, the 15-yard penalty will be enforced from where Red lost the ball, and the down will be replayed unless the enforcement gives Red a first down.

If you are watching one of my games, we will, in all likelihood, have a flag for a PF. The intent of the new rule is player safety, and not penalizing such action on what amounts to a technicality does nothing to deter subsequent acts.

edwd58 · August 27th, 2009, 08:28 PM

I haven't seen Tidehawk on here in quite some time. If memory serves, he is/was in the Wetumpka area. Hope all is well with him.

On another note, and no disrespect intended here Jref, but it is when officials decide to apply their own interpretation of the rules during a game that leads to fans, and coaches, not having any faith in their rulings and/or to give credence to claims of bias or incompetence. I'm all for player safety as well, but the rule is the rule and should be enforced as such.

I've called more than my fair share of baseball/softball games and I know there are rules that I think are poorly written, where the spirit of the rule would seem to be one thing, but the wording clearly doesn't convey that. Example: sticking with the horse collar rule, why is it a foul only if grabbed from the back, seems like if you grab a player, not just the "runner", anywhere (front, side, back) by the opening of the neck, you could do him harm. Another: why can a runner stiff arm a defender in the facemask and it not be a penalty, but a defender gets penalized for barely grazing/grasping the facemask of the runner? Logic would seem to indicate the defender can be injured just as easily as the runner when grabbed or otherwise handled in such a manner.

I only bring this up for the sake of discussion, not to flame or otherwise incite, lol. What do you guys think?

VolFan1 · August 27th, 2009, 10:04 PM

	Quote:	edwd58
	but it is when officials decide to apply their own interpretation of the rules during a game that leads to fans, and coaches, not having any faith in their rulings and/or to give credence to claims of bias or incompetence.

Is this not basically what happens nearly anytime pass interference is called? It is almost purely a judgment call. This holds especially true if a player is called for pass interference and doesn't touch the receiver....face guarding.

Also a rule that is not nearly as severe as a horse collar is the rule where all offensive players have to be 9 yards (inside the numbers) in the field sometime between the ready for play and the snap. If a player lines up a couple of steps outside the numbers and has a defender on him you are not going to see the offense flagged for this.

Same will also typically hold true if the defense is "barely" lined up in the neutral zone. Many times the official that sees it will let them know they need to scoot back, you will usually see this called but it is after a warning or something that cannot go uncalled.

Also in high school, many times, you will see the offense get 27-28 seconds to snap the ball. Instead of 25.

I think there are many instances that can be named during a game or over the course of a couple of games that could be called "their own interpretation of the rules".

	Quote:
	Example: sticking with the horse collar rule, why is it a foul only if grabbed from the back, seems like if you grab a player, not just the "runner", anywhere (front, side, back) by the opening of the neck, you could do him harm.

Agreed...it would also make it much easier and take judgment out of the equation.

	Quote:
	Another: why can a runner stiff arm a defender in the facemask and it not be a penalty, but a defender gets penalized for barely grazing/grasping the facemask of the runner? Logic would seem to indicate the defender can be injured just as easily as the runner when grabbed or otherwise handled in such a manner.

I agree that the offense is not called for facemask very often when this happens. The runner can be flagged for it though. If he grabs it, it could very easily be a penalty.

Same hold true for the defense. If a hand just goes across the mask, it may not be called. Then you also have a 5 and 15 yd facemask. Odds are if a facemask is called on the offense that it will be 15 because the mask has been grabbed.

	Quote:
	I only bring this up for the sake of discussion, not to flame or otherwise incite, lol. What do you guys think?

Good discussion, IMO.

Jref · August 31st, 2009, 09:00 AM

	Quote:	edwd58
	... when officials decide to apply their own interpretation of the rules during a game that leads to fans, and coaches, not having any faith in their rulings and/or to give credence to claims of bias or incompetence.

That's not my interpretation. It's the NFHS interpretation: "The official must judge whether or not a personal foul has occurred." So, in my judgement, this would constitute a personal foul. And I'll call it the same for both teams.

	Quote:
	why is it a foul only if grabbed from the back, seems like if you grab a player, not just the "runner", anywhere (front, side, back) by the opening of the neck, you could do him harm.

It's a foul if the runner is grabbed inside the collar from the back or side and subsequently pulled down. Runners are pulled down by the front all the time, and apparently the risk of injury is relatively low.

	Quote:
	why can a runner stiff arm a defender in the facemask and it not be a penalty, but a defender gets penalized for barely grazing/grasping the facemask of the runner??

If a runner grasps and twists the facemask of a defender, he should be flagged for a facemask foul. Remember, merely touching (grazing) an opponents facemask is NOT a foul.

Jref · August 31st, 2009, 02:51 PM

This is my 22nd season of officiating high school football. Let me make some general observations that might help folks understand what is involved.

An experienced offical has to study not only the Rules Book, but also the Case Book (which is thicker than the Rules Book, and gives interpretations for specific plays), the Official Interpretations which are handed down by the NFHS after the Rules Book is printed, and various video presentations showing plays which often call for judgment on the part of the covering official.

You wouldn't want to watch a football game called strictly by the letter of the rules. For instance, we are instructed to ignore pass interference if the ball is thrown to the opposite side of the field, or holding away from the point of attack. This principle is usually known as "Advantage/Disadvantage", or just "A/D". We commonly give the offense a couple of extra seconds past the :25 called for by the rules if they are just about to snap, as opposed to trying to run out the clock or being late getting the play in. We try to talk the players out of formation fouls if we can, especially early in the season.

Having said that, we will always call fouls involving player safety, such as clipping, blocking below the waist, illegal helmet contact, spearing, etc. We will never knowingly let a player participate without his wearing the required safety equipment in the proper manner (including having his mouthpiece in).

Please understand, folks, that we just plain don't care who wins the game. In most cases, we're the only ones there who don't have some rooting interest in the outcome. All we want is for the game to be a fair opportunity for both teams to win, and for no one to get injured.