You Make the Call 10/13

bamajake · October 13th, 2009, 12:53 PM

White has the ball on the Red 45, 3rd and 10. The White quarterback rolls to his right and throws a pass from the Red 43 that is completed to the Red 31. After the quarterback throws the ball, Red 55 takes three steps and hits the quarterback. What are the options?

NYBamaFan · October 13th, 2009, 01:09 PM

Since there are penalties on both teams (illegal forward pass and roughing), both coaches would be forced to accept the penalties. In this case, I think that you would walk off both.

So my guess is, loss of down (doesn't matter), move the ball backwards to the 50, then forward 15 yards to the 35 and automatic 1st down...

Jref · October 13th, 2009, 01:16 PM

	Quote:	NYBamaFan
	Since there are penalties on both teams (illegal forward pass and roughing), both coaches would be forced to accept the penalties. In this case, I think that you would walk off both. So my guess is, loss of down (doesn't matter), move the ball backwards to the 50, then forward 15 yards to the 35 and automatic 1st down...

You're gonna let the offense profit by fouling?

You're gonna let the defense profit by fouling?

NYBamaFan · October 13th, 2009, 02:02 PM

	Quote:	Jref
	You're gonna let the offense profit by fouling?

If the defensive team does not accept the penalty, the ball would be even further down the field, as the ball was caught at the 31. Tack on another 15 yards and they are at the 16 instead of the 35.

	Quote:
	You're gonna let the defense profit by fouling?

If you are the offensive team, declining the 15 yard penalty doesn't make sense. It means that you get the ball at the 50 instead of the 35, since they will accept their penalty. Even if they didn't accept their penalty, why not take the additional 15 yards?

Unless I am wrong about the penalties, both teams would be foolish to decline, so neither would...

bamajake · October 13th, 2009, 03:38 PM

Ahhhh, I wonder if Jref sees the same thing that I see in this situation?

Where are you VolFan?

VolFan1 · October 13th, 2009, 04:45 PM

	Quote:	bamajake
	Ahhhh, I wonder if Jref sees the same thing that I see in this situation? Where are you VolFan?

Just now got in from work and looking at this

VolFan1 · October 13th, 2009, 04:56 PM

I think the penalties are totally separate and will not offset.

I think you are going to end up with 1st down white from the red 35...something tells me there is no way that is right. I need to run to the car and get my rule book

Here is my reasoning:

The illegal forward pass is 5 yards and loss of down. So, red will accept this penalty...making it 4th and 15 from the 50.

You will then enforce the 15 yard personal foul for the late hit. This will take you to the 35 which is the 1st down marker. So, I have 1st and 10 white from the red 35....at the same time I am heading out to get my rule book and look it up

NYBamaFan · October 13th, 2009, 05:06 PM

Let me list the options, without any real knowledge of the actual penalties:

1 - Red declines the illegal forward pass penalty. White gets the ball at the 31.
- If White also declines the roughing penalty, the ball stays there - at the 31
- It White accepts the penalty, tack on 15 - White ball at the 16

2 - White declines the penalty on red
- If Red accepts the ifp penalty, it is White ball on the 50, loss of down - they are punting
- If Red declines the penalty on white, again, it is 1st and 10 at the 31

3 - Neither team declines the penalty - both are marched off
- 5 yards and loss of down, move the ball back to the 50
- 15 yards and automatic first down, move the ball up to the 35

so the four options are

* White ball at the 16 (requires Red to decline penalty)
* White ball at the 50 and punting (requires White to decline penalty)
* White ball at the 31 (both teams decline penalties)
* White ball at the 35 (both teams accept penalties)

Since being the only team to decline a penalty hurts your outcome, both would be inclined to accept the penalties.

What did I mess up?

bamajake · October 13th, 2009, 05:12 PM

Let me clear up one thing in the situation and see if it makes any difference in your thoughts. When Red 55 hit the White QB, the play was still in progress.

bamajake · October 13th, 2009, 05:26 PM

Oh yeah, and assume it was not a particularly vicious hit, more of a tackle.

NYBamaFan · October 13th, 2009, 05:50 PM

	Quote:	bamajake
	Let me clear up one thing in the situation and see if it makes any difference in your thoughts. When Red 55 hit the White QB, the play was still in progress.

Sorry, still coming up blank. Even if it is not a dead ball foul, it is still 15 yards and automatic 1st down from the end of the run. As for how vicious the blow, roughing is roughing. A ref should call personal foul after 3 steps, no matter what.

VolFan1 · October 13th, 2009, 06:55 PM

	Quote:	NYBamaFan
	Sorry, still coming up blank. Even if it is not a dead ball foul, it is still 15 yards and automatic 1st down from the end of the run. As for how vicious the blow, roughing is roughing. A ref should call personal foul after 3 steps, no matter what.

Personal foul is not automatic first down. The automatic first downs in HS are defensive pass interference and roughing penalties

NYBamaFan · October 13th, 2009, 08:04 PM

	Quote:	VolFan1
	Personal foul is not automatic first down. The automatic first downs in HS are defensive pass interference and roughing penalties

Fair enough, but this is roughing based on the NCAA rule book (taking more than one step - this was three). Not sure about HS.

Still, the yardage provides the first down, even after the 5 yarder for ifp.

I know that I must be missing something...