Lincoln's report card

Bodhisattva · March 9th, 2007, 02:16 PM

The Reagan thread is generating good debate. What about Linclon? Pros? Cons?

jthomas666 · March 9th, 2007, 02:24 PM

Not real sure, but I just started reading Manhunt, by James Swanson, about the search for Booth following the assassination, and it is fantastic. It's told as a narrative rather than a history (though it is an entirely factual account), and has an energy that John Grisham can only dream of achieving.

Bama Torch in Pcola · March 9th, 2007, 02:24 PM

Pro - saved the union and ended slavery
Con - suspended habias corpus for the entire state of Maryland to do it

Pro - saved the union and ended slavery
Con - illegally prevented the secession of the southern states

Pro - Eventually put Grant in charge, and gave him the proper authority
Con - It took him 3 years too long to find the right guy

Pro - Took a conciliatory approach to reconstruction, he was the only one with the clout to make it work
Con - Got himself shot before he could put it into action

Pro - was very tall and presidential
Con - was uglier than a mud fence

Dr. Van Nostran · March 9th, 2007, 02:26 PM

I read somewhere that he MAY have had a homosexual relationship at some point.

Bamaro · March 9th, 2007, 02:31 PM

Got to be at least an A-

Tidewater · March 9th, 2007, 02:37 PM

	Quote:	Bodhisattva
	The Reagan thread is generating good debate. What about Linclon? Pros? Cons?

Most effective proagandist ever to occupy the White House, that includes President Clinton I. Grade: A+
Only President ever to:
1. Order the arrest of State Legislators because of how the President feared they were about to vote. (Maryland legislators, September 1861).
2. Order the closure of newspapers and arrest of editors because he didn't like what they wrote. (New York World and New York Journal of Commerce, May 1864).
3. "Banish" (yes, banish; what, were the United States living in the Middle Ages?) a former member of Congress, Clement Vallandigham of Ohio, because he didn't like what Vallandigham said in a speech in 1863.
4. Suspended the writ of habeas corpus without prior congressional authorization.
5. Order the arrest of a Supreme Court Justice because he disagreed with a decision that justice issued in Ex Parte Merryman. Grade: F

Overall, D-

Dr. Van Nostran · March 9th, 2007, 02:55 PM

	Quote:	Tidewater
	Most effective proagandist ever to occupy the White House, that includes President Clinton I. Grade: A+ Only President ever to: 1. Order the arrest of State Legislators because of how the President feared they were about to vote. (Maryland legislators, September 1861). 2. Order the closure of newspapers and arrest of editors because he didn't like what they wrote. (New York World and New York Journal of Commerce, May 1864). 3. "Banish" (yes, banish; what, were the United States living in the Middle Ages?) a former member of Congress, Clement Vallandigham of Ohio, because he didn't like what Vallandigham said in a speech in 1863. 4. Suspended the writ of habeas corpus without prior congressional authorization. 5. Order the arrest of a Supreme Court Justice because he disagreed with a decision that justice issued in Ex Parte Merryman. Grade: F Overall, D-

Did he REALLY do those things? OMG!

Tidewater · March 9th, 2007, 03:41 PM

	Quote:	Dr. Van Nostran
	Did he REALLY do those things? OMG!

Don't take my word for it.

Most effective proagandist ever to occupy the White House, that includes President Clinton I. Grade: A+
"The Gettysburg speech was at once the shortest and the most famous oration in American history...the highest emotion reduced to a few poetical phrases. Lincoln himself never even remotely approached it. It is genuinely stupendous. But let us not forget that it is poetry, not logic; beauty, not sense. Think of the argument in it. Put it into the cold words of everyday. The doctrine is simply this: that the Union soldiers who died at Gettysburg sacrificed their lives to the cause of self-determination – that government of the people, by the people, for the people, should not perish from the earth. It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves."
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/mencken2.html

Only President ever to:
1. Order the arrest of State Legislators because of how the President feared they were about to vote. (Maryland legislators, September 1861).
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-b...IF&pagenum=194

2. Order the closure of newspapers and arrest of editors because he didn't like what they wrote. (New York World and New York Journal of Commerce, May 1864).http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-b...ames=1&view=50

3. "Banish" (yes, banish; what, were the United States living in the Middle Ages?) a former member of Congress, Clement Vallandigham of Ohio, because he didn't like what Vallandigham said in a speech in 1863.
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-b...IF&pagenum=315

4. Suspended the writ of habeas corpus without prior congressional authorization.
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-b...3DANU4519-0002

5. Order the arrest of a Supreme Court Justice because he disagreed with a decision that justice issued in Ex Parte Merryman. Grade: F
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/adams3.html

Overall, D-

NYBamaFan · March 9th, 2007, 03:58 PM

	Quote:	Dr. Van Nostran
	Did he REALLY do those things? OMG!

Yes, but the very future of our country was at stake. They sound terrible now, but most approved of the measures at the time. Remember, history cannot properly view something when the lens of time has distorted the image. The world was a very different place in 1860...

Tidewater · March 9th, 2007, 04:14 PM

	Quote:	NYBamaFan
	Yes, but the very future of our country was at stake.

No, the forced continuation of some of the States in the Union was at stake. If the South had won completely, the United States would have continued to exist. It would have consisted of States that wanted to be members.

	Quote:	NYBamaFan
	They sound terrible now, but most approved of the measures at the time.

It would seem that something like 5 million citizens in the Southern States at the time disagreed. And within the Northern States, once the political arrests of citizens, legislators, and editors commenced, just how free were people to disagree? Most people in Stalin's Russia would have told you there agreed with Comrade Stalin's policies.

	Quote:	NYBamaFan
	Remember, history cannot properly view something when the lens of time has distorted the image. The world was a very different place in 1860...

I take a very much nomocratic view of the United States.
There is nothing inherently good or bad about keeping the Union together. The goodness or badness of the United States must evaluated by how they conduct themselves. The most important standard by which I judge the Union is the compliance with the provisions of the Constitution of the United States. If the Federal Government doesn't comply with the provisions of the United States Constitution, the sooner the Federal Government collapses, the better. It can serve as a monument to the folly of violating the Constitution.
To sacrifice the ends of the Union for its means is to get the relationship precisely wrong. Which is exactly why Lincoln was one of the worst Presidents ever to curse this country with his rule.

NYBamaFan · March 9th, 2007, 04:19 PM

We will have to agree to disagree. It is my position that our survival as a nation required that we remain a single entity.

CrimsonChuck · March 9th, 2007, 04:28 PM

	Quote:	Tidewater
	4. Suspended the writ of habeas corpus without prior congressional authorization.

From Article I, Section 9,

	Quote:
	The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

bamanut_aj · March 9th, 2007, 04:28 PM

I don't remember much about his time in office, so I can't really say.