Link: Numbers, not shouting, overwhelm health care debate

[NYBamaFan]

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Good read, for those still interested in facts: link...

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	About 17 percent of our $14 trillion dollar economy is dedicated to health care. We pay more for health care than we do for food. Too much of what we spend on our care does nothing to improve our health.

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	In 2007, each American paid more than $500 to administer health insurance. The U.S. health insurance industry spends roughly 20 cents of every dollar it pays for “nonmedical costs, such as paperwork, reviewing claims and marketing,” according to T.R. Reid, author of “The Healing of America.” This figure is often referred to as “medical loss ratio” or the money spent on actual care versus the money spent on non-medical costs. That $500 you pay funds a small army, about 463,000 people (more than the active military in Iran today), employed by the health insurance industry. Many of those employees spend their days looking for ways to slow payments or deny your claims.

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	No other country has a medical loss ratio close to ours. Our administrative costs are more than double any other country, including France, where Reid points out everyone is covered by non-profit, private insurers. The French spend just 5 percent on administration, while Canada, with a single-payer, government-run system, spends only 6 percent.

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	So what are we getting for our money? • Better health? No. A 2008 London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine study looking at deaths that could have been prevented by access to timely and effective health care placed the U.S. last among 19 countries. If the U.S. had performed as well as the top three countries (France, Japan, and Australia) 101,000 deaths per year would have been prevented. • More care? No. In Japan, citizens average an astounding three times more visits to doctors’ offices than Americans and twice as many MRI scans and X-Rays. Even with all these visits, the Japanese still spend less than half as much per person on health care as we do. Life expectancy and recovery rates for major diseases there are much better than ours. • Fiscal health? No. In 2006, our economy lost as much as $200 billion because of the poorer health and shorter lifespan of the uninsured. • Premiums for small businesses are up 129 percent since 2000. And the insurance industry is quoting increases of 14-15 percent for the next year. • The high cost of health care causes a bankruptcy every 30 seconds. In 2007, 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies were due to medical costs. Reid points out medical bills force 700,000 Americans into bankruptcy, while there are ZERO medical bankruptcies in France, Britain, Japan and Germany. • Security and Stability? No. The Kaiser Family Foundation reports last month “one third of Americans (33 percent) say they or someone in their household has had problems paying medical bills over the past year.” That’s up nine percentage points from August and represents the highest level in nearly a year. • Health coverage for all Americans? Not even close, and believe me, the uninsured are costing you money. This year, every insured American family will pay the health insurance industry $1,017 -- and insured singles will pay $368 -- in premiums just to cover the medical expenses of the uninsured.

[markenk]

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	• More care? No. In Japan, citizens average an astounding three times more visits to doctors’ offices than Americans and twice as many MRI scans and X-Rays. Even with all these visits, the Japanese still spend less than half as much per person on health care as we do. Life expectancy and recovery rates for major diseases there are much better than ours.

The article lost all credibilities by bringing up the case in Japan. Japanese hospitals have a right to accept or reject patients. I have lived there for 3 years and I know an elderly living across my place died because none of the hospitals would admit her for whatever reason. Her son basically carried her to 3 different hospitals (because they wouldn't even send an ambulance) and all of them turned her away at their ER doors.

[NYBamaFan]

	Quote:	markenk
	The article lost all credibilities by bringing up the case in Japan. Japanese hospitals have a right to accept or reject patients. I have lived there for 3 years and I know an elderly living across my place died because none of the hospitals would admit her for whatever reason. Her son basically carried her to 3 different hospitals (because they wouldn't even send an ambulance) and all of them turned her away at their ER doors.

Is the fact stated in the article correct? Yes it is.

You sound like a tool for the GOP when you take their point and discount it because there is something else that you don't like about Japan's healthcare system.

BTW, American hospitals also have the right to turn away ambulances and do so on a regular basis...

[markenk]

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	Is the fact stated in the article correct? Yes it is. You sound like a tool for the GOP when you take their point and discount it because there is something else that you don't like about Japan's healthcare system.

LOL, a tool for the GOP. Good one, but missed it by a long shot.

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	BTW, American hospitals also have the right to turn away ambulances and do so on a regular basis...

First, I bet you I can at least have an ambulance sent over to my place if I phoned 911.

Second, how many times do you see a patient getting rejected by 14 different hospitals in US? Or, a better question would be, is that even possible in US?

Japanese patient rejected by 14 hospitals

[NYBamaFan]

	Quote:	markenk
	...First, I bet you I can at least have an ambulance sent over to my place if I phoned 911.

They are all volunteers here. Big difference in culture. But getting picked up means nothing. ERs can turn you away if they are full.

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	Second, how many times do you see a patient getting rejected by 14 different hospitals in US? Or, a better question would be, is that even possible in US?...

Did you read the part in the article that mentioned that over 100,000 Americans die every year as a result of our healthcare system that would not have died in many other countries. Here it is:

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	If the U.S. had performed as well as the top three countries (France, Japan, and Australia) 101,000 deaths per year would have been prevented.

Notice that Japan is on that list? We can match horror stories all night...

[GPSnakeHandler]

	Quote:	NYBamaFan
	You sound like a tool for the GOP when you take their point and discount it because there is something else that you don't like about Japan's healthcare system.

Why is it that you accuse everyone of being a mouthpiece for the GOP when they disagree with you?

Ironic, really, when you link an Op-Ed from a Democratic politician.

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	ERs can turn you away if they are full.

Imagine that - a hospital not taking additional patients because they are at capacity.

[NYBamaFan]

	Quote:	GPSnakeHandler
	Why is it that you accuse everyone of being a mouthpiece for the GOP when they disagree with you? Ironic, really, when you link an Op-Ed from a Democratic politician. Imagine that - a hospital not taking additional patients because they are at capacity.

Ooh, thanks for the input.

Seriously, why do you post? Got anything to add to the debate, or was your point to simply insult me?

Never mind. I really don't care...

[markenk]

	Quote:	NYBamaFan
	They are all volunteers here. Big difference in culture. But getting picked up means nothing. ERs can turn you away if they are full. Did you read the part in the article that mentioned that over 100,000 Americans die every year as a result of our healthcare system that would not have died in many other countries. Here it is: Notice that Japan is on that list? We can match horror stories all night...

I don't know what you are preaching here. Are you suggesting that they have a better overall heath care in japan? Granted that Japanese system costs less and looks good on paper (numbers wise), but it's because their system is geared toward to the preventive care. When .... hits the fan, they have so few specialized doctors that most of them flock to the US to get their treatment. The fact that we, the US, has THE most specialized doctors in the ENTIRE world is something we should take pride in.

Japanese health insurance is universal and mandatory (socialized) but their healthcare is privatized. This means their doctors earn far less money than those over here in the US. This is the number 1 reason why their hospitals are so full and always in demand for more doctors, yet not enough bright young minds are pursuing the medical career field for the obvious reason. This is also why patients are being turned away.

Another issue is that people downright overuse their healthcare. This is causing the health care spending by their gov't to increase to the point that they (with socialized health insurance) are projected to match our current level of health care spending.

Also, Japan has a very different culture than ours. Modeling ours to that of Japanese is going to be the biggest mistake ever.

[NYBamaFan]

	Quote:	markenk
	I don't know what you are preaching here...

Maybe you haven't been paying attention to my posts for the last 6 months. I am talking about the US healthcare system. The system that is rated #37 in the world and that murders Americans every day.

If I could model our system after any other country, it would be France.

[Bamaro]

To me, its all about the numbers. We definitely need reform but the jury is still out whether the final bill will provide this or not AND how much it really will cost. Once we have an idea of the real cost, the people can let their reps know how they feel about it. I dont really care too much how the insurance industry feels about it.
Its unfortunate that the whole debate has degraded to the level that it has. Its as if both sides are afraid to let the public know the truth.

[RollTide1017]

	Quote:	NYBamaFan
	BTW, American hospitals also have the right to turn away ambulances and do so on a regular basis...

You have got to be kidding me! Yes an ER can turn away an ambulance if they are full but, that doesn't mean that they just take you back home. They'll just take you to the next hospital; you will get in an ER in this country. They cannot refuse treatment here like they can in Japan. You may get slapped with a $100,000 bill afterwards but, you'll get treatment (eventually).

Look, I think something needs to be done, the health care cost are just too high in this Country. I don't know how to fix it but, something needs to change. Health care should be about providing, well, health care not, padding the wallets of insurance companies.

Even though I do not know what the answer is, I don't think the bills being pushed right now are the right answer. Currently, while expensive, my health coverage works and I don't want that to change. Would I like it to be cheaper, sure, but not at the expense of coverage.

[NYBamaFan]

	Quote:	Bamaro
	To me, its all about the numbers. We definitely need reform but the jury is still out whether the final bill will provide this or not AND how much it really will cost. Once we have an idea of the real cost, the people can let their reps know how they feel about it. I dont really care too much how the insurance industry feels about it. Its unfortunate that the whole debate has degraded to the level that it has. Its as if both sides are afraid to let the public know the truth.

This bill will have a real cost of about $200 billion per year - about double the amount being announced. Anyone paying attention to the details can do the math with ease. That is why they are holding off on the implementation of some of the things - implementing them in stages. To control the "ten year" cost. Americans should demand they they be more honest in their accounting, no doubt...

[NYBamaFan]

	Quote:	RollTide1017
	You have got to be kidding me! Yes an ER can turn away an ambulance if they are full but, that doesn't mean that they just take you back home. They'll just take you to the next hospital; you will get in an ER in this country....

When I lived on Long Island, on nights with a full moon the crazies come out, and the hospitals would all be full to capacity. I can remember many times when I read about patients taking all night rides until a hospital somewhere agreed to take them in. One of the many reasons that we left.

Where you have dense populations, you run into this problem in America (and around the world)...