There's been a shooting on Fort Hood - Page 5

NYBamaFan · November 6th, 2009, 10:43 AM

I don't understand the desire by some Americans to vilify Islam and its followers. I do not see Islam as a "peaceful" religion, but I hold individuals responsible for their actions. Unless this nut was instructed to do this by his religious leaders, this cannot be laid at the feet of Islam - and even then he is most to blame.

dayhiker · November 6th, 2009, 10:51 AM

	Quote:	NYBamaFan
	I don't understand the desire by some Americans to vilify Islam and its followers. I do not see Islam as a "peaceful" religion, but I hold individuals responsible for their actions. Unless this nut was instructed to do this by his religious leaders, this cannot be laid at the feet of Islam - and even then he is most to blame.

That's the way I see it based on what I've read to date, with the exception of what I bolded.

NYBamaFan · November 6th, 2009, 11:02 AM

	Quote:	dayhiker
	That's the way I see it based on what I've read to date, with the exception of what I bolded.

The reason that I added that is simple (to me). This man is not some poor soul with no hope. If he has been successfully recruited by religious extremists it is because he allowed himself to be recruited. It is also probably because he sought it out.

Most of Islam's homicide bombers are losers with no hope for themselves or their family. They are talked into it because of their poor education and the fact that their life is horrible and has NO CHANCE of getting any better.

By all appearances, this guy had a world of opportunity at his feet but was too unstable to take advantage of it...

dayhiker · November 6th, 2009, 11:13 AM

	Quote:	NYBamaFan
	The reason that I added that is simple (to me). This man is not some poor soul with no hope. If he has been successfully recruited by religious extremists it is because he allowed himself to be recruited. It is also probably because he sought it out. Most of Islam's homicide bombers are losers with no hope for themselves or their family. They are talked into it because of their poor education and the fact that their life is horrible and has NO CHANCE of getting any better. By all appearances, this guy had a world of opportunity at his feet but was too unstable to take advantage of it...

Good points. I believe I've read that most of the Middle East has the equivalent of about a 4th grade education.

Bamabuzzard · November 6th, 2009, 11:34 AM

I don't know what he did to get to this point. But what I do know is that terrorist cells don't plan on one day then carry out the next day. Some plan and plot for literally years. They mix in with the society, live amongst "the people" waiting on instructions. Then you have some (which maybe the case in this dudes actions) who convert to Islam "later in life" then decide to carry out their "offering to allah" at moments notice. But the common denominator to all of this is one thing. Terrorist attacks are being done by people who are from the Muslim faith. Considering 9/11 and how it was OPENLY told to the world (by Osama Bin Laden) that Islam has declared war against the U.S. At that same time video shows Muslims across the world celebrating the declaration and celebrating 9/11. I don't think we need to continue to be so PC about this.

We're in a Holy War but we're the only ones that hasn't figured it out yet. Hopefully we will before it's too late. I stand by what I say. This will continue and will get greater in scale. We have an enemy that wants to destroy this country. They are plotting, lying in wait and will do whatever it takes to bring this country down. And sorry to say it, but they are from the Islamic faith. We as a country can continue to say that Islam doesn't teach this type of radical behavior and deceive ourselves but the reality of it is they do.

	Quote:	dayhiker
	I'm pretty sure I read he enlisted at age 18. Are you saying he sat idly by in the military for 20 years to suddenly become a terrorist?

SavannahDare · November 6th, 2009, 11:48 AM

There is nothing that we know now to point to this being an act of terrorism. Everything at this point (and, of course, we may learn otherwise as further investigation continues) leads me to believe he did this out of desperation to avoid deployment. Apparently, he attempted to be released from his obligated service based on his opposition to the war and religious beliefs. That was denied. I will explain later why that likely was.

I do not know if he was enlisted prior to going to college at VA Tech, but he did eventually get his undergraduate degree from there. He then accepted a commission and was accepted to The Uniformed Services University School of Health Sciences (USUHS - the med school I attended) in Bethesda, MD, in 1999. This is NOT an easy medical school to get into. There are approximately 65-75 applicants per seat. Class size is a little over 150 and commissions are divided roughly into thirds (50ish Navy, 50ish Army, 50ish Air Force and less than 5 Public Health Services). He apparently graduated from there in 2003. In exchange for his medical education, his obligation was ten years of active duty service upon completion of his residency training.

He then was accepted into the National Capital Consortium Military Psychiatry Residency Program (the residency in which I was trained). This is a four year training program. Interns and residents get extensive training in all aspects of psychiatry and get a heavy dose of training in military and occupational psychiatry. Training hospitals include, but are not limited to, National Naval Medical Center in Bethesda, MD, Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, DC, Malcolm Grow Medical Center at Andrews Air Force Base, and several community mental health centers in the metro DC areas. ALL residents are required to complete a minimum of one year of their own psychotherapy (at least that's how it was when I went through it 1994-1998), typically during the second or third year of training. This guy was apparently having difficulties and was sent to therapy during his first year. He also received "extra supervision" throughout his residency, apparently due to these unknown difficulties. It is unclear when he began expressing his antipathy towards the war.

Upon completion of residency, rather than accepting transfer to a first duty station (which is what the majority of physicians do) he entered fellowship training in Disaster Psychiatry at Walter Reed. This one year fellowship would have added an additional two years obligated service to the ten he already had incurred. Apparently, he completed that training this past June (after having been promoted in May) and was given orders to Ft Hood, TX, to be an attending psychiatrist at the medical center there. He would've automatically been assigned to a deployment platform. I do not know if that was where the rubber met the road or if he had been making noise to get out earlier, but I know this will eventually come out.

Listen, I have lots of experience with these types of situations. I saw it all the time. Usually, it is an enlisted man or woman who is attempting to get out of deployment and making them go away is FAR easier than getting rid of an officer. It's an entirely different animal. There's no feasible way for him to "pay back" the government for his education and training. That amount would FAR EXCEED $500,000 (I'm being conservative even quoting that amount) and the military would expect their pound of flesh from this guy in terms of service. The mentality is "we have invested far too much in you to let you walk away; we need your service not your money."

So, I would imagine what happened is he began voicing his dissent at some point openly in the past year or so, after having already had adjustment problems in the '03-'04 time period. I'm sure he was evaluated, repeatedly, by his superiors, who were also psychiatrists. I'm certain they felt they were doing everything they could do to support this guy, one of their own, so he could in turn support the troops. The problem is this: It looks like they allowed their judgment to be clouded by the need to keep him in. Rather than looking at him and saying "here's a middle aged man with religious convictions that lead him to object to the very occupation he has chosen. He is not married. He has no children. He has no one to be responsible for other than himself in his personal life. We are pushing him into a corner he doesn't want to be pushed into, no matter what contract he signed. We need to cut our losses with this one and encourage the Bureau of Medicine to let him go" they instead sided with the "we can train him up" mentality.

Looks like they made a huge mistake. This man had nothing to lose. Not a thing. He fits the profile of a man capable of this perfectly. His narcissism and sociopathy, which he apparently hid reasonably well behind his uniform and his religion, would not allow him to "suck it up" and fulfill his duty. He eventually got to the point, three weeks prior to deployment, where he was unwilling to let someone else control him. Oh, no, he was going to show them ALL how much they should've listened to him (this is his thinking, not mine). He was going to prove to the Army that his way was the only way, and if that meant innocents were going to die, so be it.

Callous. Incapable of seeing past his own desires. Empty inside.

I hope they decide to allow military courts to try him rather than Texas. The military should have the privilege (and how ironic it would be) of putting him to death. Of course, he's been seeing the military as the aggressor against him for some time now. Well, let's show him just how aggressive and against him the military can be.

dayhiker · November 6th, 2009, 11:57 AM

	Quote:	Bamabuzzard
	I don't know what he did to get to this point. But what I do know is that terrorist cells don't plan on one day then carry out the next day. Some plan and plot for literally years. They mix in with the society, live amongst "the people" waiting on instructions. Then you have some (which maybe the case in this dudes actions) who convert to Islam "later in life" then decide to carry out their "offering to allah" at moments notice. But the common denominator to all of this is one thing. Terrorist attacks are being done by people who are from the Muslim faith. Considering 9/11 and how it was OPENLY told to the world (by Osama Bin Laden) that Islam has declared war against the U.S. At that same time video shows Muslims across the world celebrating the declaration and celebrating 9/11. I don't think we need to continue to be so PC about this. We're in a Holy War but we're the only ones that hasn't figured it out yet. Hopefully we will before it's too late. I stand by what I say. This will continue and will get greater in scale. We have an enemy that wants to destroy this country. They are plotting, lying in wait and will do whatever it takes to bring this country down. And sorry to say it, but they are from the Islamic faith. We as a country can continue to say that Islam doesn't teach this type of radical behavior and deceive ourselves but the reality of it is they do.

I realize we're in a holy war and that the terrorist cells work that way, it just doesn't look like this situation is what you're describing.

dayhiker · November 6th, 2009, 11:59 AM

	Quote:	SavannahDare
	There is nothing that we know now to point to this being an act of terrorism....

Thanks for all of the insight. I imagine all of your peers are abuzz today. Since the school is that small I bet you're going to figure out a few one or two degree of seperation examples pretty soon.

SavannahDare · November 6th, 2009, 12:37 PM

	Quote:	dayhiker
	Thanks for all of the insight. I imagine all of your peers are abuzz today. Since the school is that small I bet you're going to figure out a few one or two degree of seperation examples pretty soon.

Already done. One of my classmates is the head of the intensive/urgent care department at the hospital. He said he was very proud of how his staff (doctors, nurses, technicians) handled the mass casualties, but was sorry they had to do that here when what they're best trained for is to do it in the field.

Bamabuzzard · November 6th, 2009, 12:39 PM

Might not be. As I said I don't know what made this man get to this point. But its some coinky dink that the guy recently converted to Islam. Or that's what was being reported over the radio waves last night as I was coming home from work. Either way, that's just what I believe. The guy probably wasn't lying in wait for 20 years but he very well could have decided this the moment he converted to Islam (if that was accurately reported).

	Quote:	dayhiker
	I realize we're in a holy war and that the terrorist cells work that way, it just doesn't look like this situation is what you're describing.

NYBamaFan · November 6th, 2009, 12:49 PM

	Quote:	Bamabuzzard
	Might not be. As I said I don't know what made this man get to this point. But its some coinky dink that the guy recently converted to Islam. Or that's what was being reported over the radio waves last night as I was coming home from work. Either way, that's just what I believe. The guy probably wasn't lying in wait for 20 years but he very well could have decided this the moment he converted to Islam (if that was accurately reported).

I do not think this is true. Several articles include comments that talk about his Islamic background. Here is one:

	Quote:
	In an interview with The Washington Post, Hasan's aunt, Noel Hasan of Falls Church, Va., said he had been harassed about being a Muslim in the years after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks and he wanted to get out of the Army.

So, he was a practicing Muslim 8 years ago...

dayhiker · November 6th, 2009, 01:01 PM

	Quote:	NYBamaFan
	I do not think this is true. Several articles include comments that talk about his Islamic background. Here is one: So, he was a practicing Muslim 8 years ago...

That's consistant with what I've read. I did see where he had become more devout in recent years though.

SavannahDare · November 6th, 2009, 01:22 PM

He was raised in the Islamic faith in Northern Virginia. He is not a "convert."

I'm sure he has encountered some harrassment from his peers, his superiors and his patients in recent years. When I was active duty, I trained several civilian residents of Pakistani and Iranian descent. I had active duty patients flat out refuse to allow them to be their doctors.

Amongst doctors, the moment any weakness is apparent, we tend to eat our own. Medical school and residency is like swimming with sharks and you have to know how to take the lumps to your ego and give as good as you get. I've seen more than a few crack from the pressure. Of course, you'd rather see that happen earlier in training, not after they've finished with training. And you certainly don't expect someone who's both taken an oath to serve and protect this country AND to first do no harm to go off and become a mass murderer.

This lunatic should've been weeded out far sooner. Lives could've been saved.