There's been a shooting on Fort Hood - Page 9

Tidewater · November 7th, 2009, 08:49 AM

	Quote:	SavannahDare
	There is nothing that we know now to point to this being an act of terrorism.

Does a gunman have to state explicitly "This is a terrorist act" for a group murder to be considered an act of terrorism. If someone is about to commit an egregious act of random violence, "Allahu akbar" is modern short-hand for "This is a terrorist act."
Normally, when soldiers are afraid or angry about deploying to Iraq or Afghanistan, they just go AWOL and head to Canada, not gun down 43 people.
The modern western tendency to not assume the worst about people, while commendable in a way, sometimes amounts to willful blindness to objective reality.

To test this hypothesis, does one imagine MAJ Hasan would have done the same thing if he were asked to deploy to Panama in 1989? Vietnam in 1968? Korea in 1950? Really?

CrimsonNan · November 7th, 2009, 09:42 AM

	Quote:	Tidewater
	Does a gunman have to state explicitly "This is a terrorist act" for a group murder to be considered an act of terrorism. If someone is about to commit an egregious act of random violence, "Allahu akbar" is modern short-hand for "This is a terrorist act." Normally, when soldiers are afraid or angry about deploying to Iraq or Afghanistan, they just go AWOL and head to Canada, not gun down 43 people. The modern western tendency to not assume the worst about people, while commendable in a way, sometimes amounts to willful blindness to objective reality. To test this hypothesis, does one imagine MAJ Hasan would have done the same thing if he were asked to deploy to Panama in 1989? Vietnam in 1968? Korea in 1950? Really?

I may have said this on another page but.....It makes me mad when people join the military to get the "perks" but when the time comes to be sent where the fighting is, it's "Oh my goodness I don't want to go". So why should they be allowed to even join in the first place. Of course the military doesn't know which of these jerks will do that.

When Hasan said he didn't want to kill Muslims, I ask, since when would a psychiatrist go out in the field and fight anyway.

One other thing...Savannah Dare said she hoped Hasan survived so he could go to trial. Well I hope he dies and saves the country the expense and heartbreak for the families of the murdered and injured to have to go through it. And see him convicted, sentenced, and sent to prison, where he'd sit for 20years, getting a law degree (like Ted Bundy did for 10 years) to try to beat the rap. NO WAY!!! Of course there would also be other perks in prison, like playing basketball, playing on the computer, going to the library, reading ,etc. Let him die and collect his 72 virgins. BTW, he wasn't married so maybe he doesn't like women, so what would Allah give him?

NYBamaFan · November 7th, 2009, 09:50 AM

	Quote:	Tidewater
	... If someone is about to commit an egregious act of random violence, "Allahu akbar" is modern short-hand for "This is a terrorist act."...

Kind of like, "God forgive me for what I am about to do." When a Christian utters that, does Christianity get the blame for his crimes? It is a very common thing to say if one is religious and does not want God (or Allah) to hold it against them. Call it, begging for forgiveness in advance.

Using this - the loosest definition for terroriam that I have come across - this act qualifies as terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments.

NYBamaFan · November 7th, 2009, 10:08 AM

	Quote:	Bama Reb
	Sorry, but I beg to differ on this. Islam may not have DONE it, but it's influence certainly CAUSED it....

Reb,

If I agree with your argument, I have to stop holding people accountable for their own actions. Children who are raped and grow up to rape deserve to die. The fact that they were raped is no excuse in my book, and never will be. Lawyers might try to deflect blame onto others, but I don't accept it.

When it comes to religious acts, we are even more in control of our own actions. We are taught, but we also have independent egos and will. Those things determine this type of action, not the things that we have been taught. It is one thing to hate, it is another things altogether to take a human life. Hate makes it easier, as it helps dehumanize the victims, but it still requires a willful act of an individual to carry it out.

I have been in combat. It isn't easy to kill another man, even when he has been dehumanized and you are 100% sure that it is necessary. This guy might have had his religion help him dehumanize Christians, but do we know if he only target non-Muslims in the building?

I think that he was desperately afraid to deploy and took this cowardly way out. From the first second that I heard about this (where the attack took place), I assumed it was a soldier about to be deployed.

I have been there. I have breathed the fear. I have seen big, strong men cry at the prospect. This guy had already been exposed to the nightmare of war through others. Add his unstable personality and it is no wonder that he cracked. IMO, his religion likely had nothing to do with it other than giving him an excuse for his actions. It provided him with a way out of a life that he hated and a fear that was eating him alive.

I am not a psychiatrist, but I have tasted fear. This whole thing stinks of it...

ValuJet · November 7th, 2009, 12:24 PM

Why do we not hear denouncements or condemnations of these acts from the mainstream Muslim community that seems to hold so much credibility as peace loving law abiding U.S. patriots?

Is it a fear that they, too, will be targeted by the extremists for not following in lockstep with the plan to destroy all infidels? The silence is deafening, therefore gives the impression that Muslims accept and support what their more zealous believers are doing.

We've been asking that question since 9/11 and no one has provided an answer, and there's been no change in the mainstream Muslims in policing their own.

NYBamaFan · November 7th, 2009, 12:29 PM

	Quote:	ValuJet
	Why do we not hear denouncements or condemnations of these acts from the mainstream Muslim community that seems to hold so much credibility as peace loving law abiding U.S. patriots?...

Maybe because they do not feel this is a Muslim act?

ValuJet · November 7th, 2009, 01:15 PM

OK, fair enough. If that's the case, they need to find a way to speak out against these acts with a unified voice.

This Army major has been touted as a freedom loving American with no beliefs in violence and a peaceful Muslim. Until Thursday, when he suddenly woke up and decided he'd snap and try to take out as many American soldiers as he could? Sorry - doesn't add up.

This guy has been sold to us as a mainstream American Muslim. Peaceful Islam keeps taking 'em on the chin.

gmart74 · November 7th, 2009, 01:45 PM

i hope he dies, is publicly ground up with pig meat, and then thrown into a landfill.

i would also like for any soldier who suddenly becomes a conscientious objector to serve prison time. They are either liars taking advantage of the system, or they are cowards.

CrimsonNan · November 7th, 2009, 02:06 PM

	Quote:	ValuJet
	Why do we not hear denouncements or condemnations of these acts from the mainstream Muslim community that seems to hold so much credibility as peace loving law abiding U.S. patriots? Is it a fear that they, too, will be targeted by the extremists for not following in lockstep with the plan to destroy all infidels? The silence is deafening, therefore gives the impression that Muslims accept and support what their more zealous believers are doing. We've been asking that question since 9/11 and no one has provided an answer, and there's been no change in the mainstream Muslims in policing their own.

We have and have never received an answer. In my not-so-humble opinion, the "peaceful religion" either agrees with the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11,or they're too afraid of their "religion" to speak out for fear of reprisals. Whichever way, it makes them wimps. And their religion the same. I have had zero respect for Islam and Muslims since 9/11. Before then, I didn't give them a thought. To each his own was my motto. No more though!

NYBamaFan · November 7th, 2009, 02:11 PM

	Quote:	ValuJet
	...This Army major has been touted as a freedom loving American with no beliefs in violence and a peaceful Muslim. Until Thursday, when he suddenly woke up and decided he'd snap and try to take out as many American soldiers as he could? Sorry - doesn't add up....

This guy has been touted as a whack job who has no close friends or family. He fits the sociopath definition perfectly. Yet all you see when you read about him is Muslim. That says more about you than him...

NYBamaFan · November 7th, 2009, 02:17 PM

	Quote:	gmart74
	i hope he dies, is publicly ground up with pig meat, and then thrown into a landfill.

No doubt, he deserves to die. I say we find a way to use his death in a training exercise for the troops about to deploy from Ft Hood.

	Quote:
	i would also like for any soldier who suddenly becomes a conscientious objector to serve prison time.

Not me - just kick them out with a dishonorable discharge. They weaken the military. You don't want one of these guys with you in the field.

	Quote:
	They are either liars taking advantage of the system, or they are cowards.

Most are just afraid. Unless you have felt it, you wouldn't understand. The fear is a force. But, if you love your family and your fellow soldiers, you do what you have to do.

This guy had no one. It is no wonder that he gave in to his fear...

gmart74 · November 7th, 2009, 02:19 PM

	Quote:	NYBamaFan
	This guy has been touted as a whack job who has no close friends or family. He fits the sociopath definition perfectly. Yet all you see when you read about him is Muslim. That says more about you than him...

why do we have these people that fit the sociopath description so well yet somehow are always allowed to have the means to carry out violence? how many times have we heard of someone that had no friends or was ranting about various violent activities yet no one points them out and gets mental help for these people. it is always after the fact that people say "yup, i figured he would go postal one day."

Tidewater · November 7th, 2009, 02:27 PM

	Quote:	NYBamaFan
	Kind of like, "God forgive me for what I am about to do."

I really don't have the sense that this is a cry for forgiveness. It is a declaration of the sources of inspiration for the act that follows.

	Quote:	NYBamaFan
	Using this - the loosest definition for terroriam that I have come across - this act qualifies as terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments.

I would agree. I believe this act was tied directly to US policy in the Middle east, and an attempt to influence it.
MAJ Hasan had no personal animus against the soldiers he killed and wounded. He had a general animus against them simply because they were soldiers.