Health Care Summit

KrAzY3

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my stand is many people need help even those who have insurance are getting raked over the coals with added expenses.
I thought your stand was that American health care was inferior and you had proof? Now it's about people needing help and being raked over the coals with expenses.

It's not honest to complain about the quality of a system because "people need help". I can't say Ferrari makes a bad car simply because I can't afford one. I also wouldn't want to live in a world in which people can't drive Ferrari's just because it's not compassionate to drive one while other people can't.

By your logic, and the WHO's logic East Germany had the perfect cars. Pretty much the only car you could get was a Trabant. That was perfectly fair since everyone had a Trabant. I'll take the system that lets some people drive Ferraris, even if I'm not the one in the drivers seat. I suppose it's just my lack of compassion for my fellow man...
 
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bayoutider

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I thought your stand was that American health care was inferior and you had proof? Now it's about people needing help and being ranked over the coals with expenses.
No my stand is American Health Care is not #1. Whether you believe that is moot because I got mine too in both countries. ;)
 

BamaInBham

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No my stand is American Health Care is not #1. Whether you believe that is moot because I got mine too in both countries. ;)
If you were responding to my comment about the survey - I was not claiming that the US was number 1 but that their list is bogus as they acknowledged by its discontinuation. The reason being "...because of the complexity of the task."
 

bayoutider

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If you were responding to my comment about the survey - I was not claiming that the US was number 1 but that their list is bogus as they acknowledged by its discontinuation. The reason being "...because of the complexity of the task."
I was replying to no one in particular and I know that list is old but it is a list. I should have known better than for anyone to read between the lines that the US is not #1 unless you want to say they are #1 in cost. Perhaps if America fixes that cost issue, just a random thought. ;)
 

Tidewater

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No my stand is American Health Care is not #1. Whether you believe that is moot because I got mine too in both countries. ;)
Anecdotal, but...
One of my students in the UK was a Frenchman who had a child who needed surgery. After getting the run around form the Brits, he took her home (just across the Channel) and she got great care, and is back to being a healthy little French girl. The British NHS is bloated (but pretty good a small preventive actions). French system seems to work pretty well, including surgery.
 

Tidewater

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Heard a quote on a news update from Nancy Pelosi that ""health care is a right, not a privilege." Well, rights used to mean that it was something the government could not take away from you. Now a right is something the government (tax payers) is obligated to provide you? :rolleyes:
Candidate Barack Obama addressed this in an interview with a Public Broadcasting System radio station when he was running for the US Senate.
His conception of rights is Charmin Tide's (go figure). A right is something the government should provide.
Obviously, the Founders differed. To them, a right is something the government could not prevent you from having or exercising. You have the right to free speech. The government cannot stop you from speaking your mind. You have a right to peaceably assemble to petition the government for redress of grievances. The government cannot stop you from doing this assembling peaceably.
If BHO's conception is correct, and I have a right to keep and bear arms, then the government has to provide me with a firearm. I'd like the government to furnish me a Browning Automatic Rifle. I've never fired one, but they look pretty cool.
 
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KrAzY3

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I was replying to no one in particular and I know that list is old but it is a list. I should have known better than for anyone to read between the lines that the US is not #1 unless you want to say they are #1 in cost. Perhaps if America fixes that cost issue, just a random thought. ;)
Remember, your posting of that list was in response to me saying that America has the best possible health care "if one can afford it". It would seem you're somewhat willing to concede that point...

Here's the heart of my concern. I am very wary of destroying the exceptional part of American health care to try and allow more access to people that can't pay their own way into the system. I think many improvements can and should be made but that would more so be the removal of things then the addition of more bureaucrats, rules and care that isn't fully funded.

I'm all for making sure only taxpayers get a piece of government funded health care. I'm all for reducing waste and fraud. I'm all for making the provider to patient interaction more direct. I simply do not want to double down on some of the bad habits our health care system has developed. I don't want to say ok, things could be better so let's just chisel away at the good parts until we all have the same level of (mediocre) care.

One thing is certainly not warranted. We should not pretend the exceptional care that does exist within America's system is not there. We can't pretend America is not a leader in innovation, training and technological advancement. We can't pretend that we don't train more doctors than any other nation on earth. We can't pretend that the exceptional care is not there and is not possible within a non-socialized system. It's not perfect but we can't outright dismiss the quality of American health care because we have issues about cost or access.
 

bayoutider

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KrAzY we agree on many points although I think you are ignoring many of mine just to argue. The USA does train a lot of doctors and many of them train in the USA and return to their homeland. That beings up another question, which country has the most doctors per 1K people, which has the most nurses per 1K, the most hospital beds per 1K? The USA is top 10 but not #1 in anything but expense and expense is what everyone is complaining about. I promise you my French insurance costs me less and pays for more so why wouldnt someone in America want something patterned after something like that? They had to completely redo health care the way they thought of it and many of the European countries are very close to getting it together though there were and still are some struggles. It's a process but if you never start you will never finish so keep putting up roadblocks if you think that's the right thing to do. Life is a process and priorities change like I said in another thread probably half of America is 90 days away from bankruptcy, I hope you are in better shape than the bottom half but losing a job for extended time or a serious injury can seriously alter your lifestyle. No sense in me arguing with you any longer. Done here. ;)
 

CharminTide

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This thread needs more expert analysis:
[ame="http://www.hulu.com/watch/130697/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-thu-feb-25-2010"]Hulu - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart: Thu, Feb 25, 2010 - Watch the full episode now.@@AMEPARAM@@http://www.hulu.com/embed/AzlN7XHJEDJjn1hGEglzrw@@AMEPARAM@@AzlN7XHJEDJjn1hGEglzrw[/ame]

Once again, proving that he's better than any of the 24/7 news networks.
 

KrAzY3

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I promise you my French insurance costs me less and pays for more so why wouldnt someone in America want something patterned after something like that?
Ok, firstly anytime you look at those types of health care plans you miss out on so many hidden costs. Public schools are not free, socialized medicine is not free, policemen do not work for free, etc... just because you are not always sent a bill or the bill you are sent is small does not at all mean every single cost was paid for by you.

I understand the French system is somewhat difference, but it was still brought about by a compromise with Communists. So, you can say it's not socialism, but I'll say it's 50% communist and that's based on who shaped it.

While the French system might be a sterling example of what socialized medicine at it's best can do, you also have to keep in mind (as I'm sure you know) the level of control Franch exerts over its citizens. They heavily tax and regulate everything from fast food to how much non-French music people can listen to. If you strip people of their freedoms, you do have more control over them. You might even be able to force them to eat healthier and cut down on costs there, but that's not freedom!

Ultimately, as I said before our system needs to return to the consumer paying for the services they receive. What people are proposing with any form of nationalized or socialized health care plan is to ultimately level the playing field as they see it. As you said "people need help". Well, the help will come from someplace. They'll increase taxes here, set prices there (which will ultimately force certain services from the health care system) and ultimately make the entire system more like Medicare and Medicaid. That's not at all my ideal of how health care works but that's what the type of plan will do, because that's the model we have to work off of.

Here's a reality we have to face. There's no way on earth to allow for people that can't come close to affording it, to have the most expensive and extravagant health care on a regular basis. We can tear down the providers of these types of health care so no one gets it but we can't have everyone driving Ferraris, that's simply impossible without changing what Ferraris are. Our health care system has competing priorities because we do, in many ways, tell them they have to provide care for people at the best level whether or not the person can afford it. The person still can't afford it if we have someone else pay for their care, it's just that now the bill will be paid. So, instead of the hospital losing money and the individual being in a hole someone else unattached to the situation now is worse off.

It's akin to cannibalism in my mind. To save ourselves we're encouraged to take bites off of other people. Is that ending suffering? Is that truly making things better? At some point we have to concede that people who can't provide for themselves should only have the most basic (like Cuba, heh) care available to them. Once that line is drawn, I think we'd see more of the people voluntarily out of the health insurance system choose to participate since the high level care is now unavailable to them.

Otherwise, I think Medicare and Medicaid should be downsized. I think bureaucracies should be limited and health care should cost more up front so that the consumer has more of a connection with his care. I also think the costs should be more up front as well. By letting the line become blurred it opened up a chance for costs to go up and access to go down. We're funding so must waste, fraud and deadbeats that of course the system becomes burdened.

People have reached a point now that they expect to be able to buy a carton of cigarettes a week, have cable TV and a cell phone and yet they don't think they need to care for their baby or provide for their own health care. I think we need to work more to remind people of the consequences of their actions, not work to remove those consequences. They won't stop being a burden or be truly better off because we paid for something else for them, all we end up doing is buying their beer and cigarettes. How does that really help anyone?
 
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HSV256

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Here's a reality we have to face. There's no way on earth to allow for people that can't come close to affording it, to have the most expensive and extravagant health care on a regular basis. We can tear down the providers of these types of health care so no one gets it but we can't have everyone driving Ferraris, that's simply impossible without changing what Ferraris are.
So...lets say that a 9.2 earthquake strikes the city Los Angeles.

10,000 wounded
3,000 of which do NOT have any form of health insurance

The hospitals will not turn these people away. They'll get Ferrari care (because there is no such thing as bargain prices when it comes to surgery...which is what the public option was all about)...and along with it, they'll get a huge steaming pile of medical bills.

Lets say that 2 of the 3k who do not have insurance ends are unable to pay these bills, which go unpaid reported to the credit bureau (which is another discussion in and of itself)...what happens to that unpaid money?

The taxpayer eventually pays for it in some form or fashion. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

So we're darned if we do, darned if we don't.

I say reform the broken system. Health care reform is NOT about "taking your freedom", government control, or "pulling the plug on grandma". :rolleyes: If more people replaced their tinfoil hats with thinking caps, they'd understand this (not necessarily speaking directly at you, KrAzY3).

Will people pay higher taxes? Yes. Will 100% of all the U.S. be forced to buy Pinto-care instead of our beloved Ferrari-care? No. This is America, it always was America, and it will always will be America.
 

KrAzY3

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So...lets say that a 9.2 earthquake strikes the city Los Angeles.

10,000 wounded
3,000 of which do NOT have any form of health insurance

The hospitals will not turn these people away. They'll get Ferrari care (because there is no such thing as bargain prices when it comes to surgery...which is what the public option was all about)...and along with it, they'll get a huge steaming pile of medical bills.

Lets say that 2 of the 3k who do not have insurance ends are unable to pay these bills, which go unpaid reported to the credit bureau (which is another discussion in and of itself)...what happens to that unpaid money?

The taxpayer eventually pays for it in some form or fashion. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

So we're darned if we do, darned if we don't.

I say reform the broken system. Health care reform is NOT about "taking your freedom", government control, or "pulling the plug on grandma". :rolleyes: If more people replaced their tinfoil hats with thinking caps, they'd understand this (not necessarily speaking directly at you, KrAzY3).

Will people pay higher taxes? Yes. Will 100% of all the U.S. be forced to buy Pinto-care instead of our beloved Ferrari-care? No. This is America, it always was America, and it will always will be America.
Let's start off with your example, that a devastating earthquake hits a area that everyone knows is prone to those types of things. This is a perfect example of what we as a society have come to. People live in Los Angeles, they live in New Orleans and they live in Miami. They live knowing that the consequences will be mitigated, they expect federal aid and so on. Why not give them health care that the rest of us pay for, even if they are voluntarily putting themselves in harms way, eh? If it's not their fault for putting themselves in harms way whose is it? Why on earth should I care that they made poor choices, why should I be made to pay for their poor choices? Perhaps they go bankrupt (because they didn't have health insurance or a healthy bank account), perhaps the hospitals go under because they admit people with no intention in paying. In either case it's actually a natural reaction to people doing stupid things.

As far as the taxpayer role, I continually advocate smaller government, less taxes, less government bureaucracy. I think I already pay more than my fair share into the system, I've never had a unpaid bill in my life. I know with my taxes and with my bills I'm carrying weight for other people as well. In addition I know that my wife and I are paying more proportionately for our health insurance because we don't have ten kids (in other words we know how to use birth control). I'm for increasing, not decreasing consequences. The idea that the burden is shifted to me now, somewhat, is not at all a good excuse for shifting even more of the burden on to me!

I want reform as well, but I do not want reform that doubles down on what is wrong with the system. I want people to pay for their own care, to accept responsibility for their own actions and to care for their own families. This is a entirely reasonable request. I want less government involvement in health care, not more.

We live in a society in which we have so removed the consequence of people's actions that we quite literally encourage harmful behavior. We have people on this board openly admitting they choose unemployment benefits over getting a job. We have people on this forum openly admitting they can afford health insurance but choose not to get it (yet want socialized health care). We have people who fraudulently obtained a home loan, yet have the government intervene and lower their mortgage, rather than prosecute them. We have illegal immigrants with more access to public services than legal immigrants. There's a lot of things wrong with our society and in turn our health care system. Most, if not all of them simply come down to people being irresponsible or the government coming in and screwing with things that run better without them (which is about everyone imaginable). If you live in a flood zone, it might flood, that's your fault. If you live on a fault line a earthquake might hit, that's your fault. If you live under sea level in a hurricane prone area, you might be screwed. That's your fault and I feel no pity anymore than I feel bad when someone gets attacked by a bear they were messing with. I'm tired of being told I have to pay for other people's stupidity. I say let them face the consequences and may be they'll stop being stupid.
 

Bodhisattva

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A sure fire way to see health care costs drop is to have people pay their own bills. Two main reasons.

One, paying your own bills eliminates the massive free rider problem. You see this all the time at hospitals. Does a patient need an ambulance ride to the tune of $500? Well, if someone else is paying for it, sure. Why not? People don't conserve other people's money, especially if the third party is "unseen." If they had to pay that money themselves, I'm pretty sure they would be in dire straights before utilizing the service. (As it stands now many patients use ambulances as joy rides. No joke.)

Two, prices only rise because some third party (government, insurance companies) is paying the bill. And then you have to cover the costs of those who get "free" treatment. No one is restraining costs. However, if everyone paid their own way you would see prices stabilize and even fall. Say Procedure X costs $1000, but you have millions of people who can only afford $750. In short order someone will offer Procedure X (or some near-equivalent) to that market for $750. A customer base of millions will not be ignored.

We have a health care market that seems to be set up the way the government purchases military hardware. Give me the product no matter the spiraling cost.

Let the market work. I have no doubt most, if not all, of the problems we see today would be eliminated.
 

gmart74

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I'm tired of being told I have to pay for other people's stupidity. I say let them face the consequences and may be they'll stop being stupid.
amen!!!!!!

One, paying your own bills eliminates the massive free rider problem. You see this all the time at hospitals. Does a patient need an ambulance ride to the tune of $500? Well, if someone else is paying for it, sure. Why not? People don't conserve other people's money, especially if the third party is "unseen."
i have been thinking about this for some time now. what i would like to see is a law stating that if you use the ambulance then you must be strapped to a bodyboard. those things are uncomfortable and actually extremely painful. after getting strapped in maybe a few wouldn't be so happy to do it next time. the amber lance taxi is a huge problem in baltimore. i understand that the pendulum of compassion tends to swing regularly but it is high time that pendulum swung back to showing no compassion and making people be responsible for all of their own actions.
 

Bodhisattva

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i have been thinking about this for some time now. what i would like to see is a law stating that if you use the ambulance then you must be strapped to a bodyboard. those things are uncomfortable and actually extremely painful. after getting strapped in maybe a few wouldn't be so happy to do it next time. the amber lance taxi is a huge problem in baltimore. i understand that the pendulum of compassion tends to swing regularly but it is high time that pendulum swung back to showing no compassion and making people be responsible for all of their own actions.
When my wife worked in Labor and Delivery, she would constantly see service patients (i.e. charge it to the taxpayers) showing up in ambulances ...... followed by a caravan of cars transporting dozen of family members. Rarely does going into labor require an ambulance. And you'll get to the hospital faster if you just get into one of the many cars at your disposal. But, the parasites didn't care about the cost; the taxpayer foots the bill. The ambulance service is not incentivized to hold down costs either. It's a retarded (non-market system) we've constructed.

Instead of a bureaucrat (in the insurance company or in a government agency) judging the validity of the cost, let the consumer decide in the market place. Is an ambulance ride needed? Is it an emergency. The test for emergency/nonemergency would be your willingness to pay for it. Simple. Clean. Efficient.
 

Cape Tide

3rd Team
Jun 3, 2009
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It's not honest to complain about the quality of a system because "people need help". I can't say Ferrari makes a bad car simply because I can't afford one. I also wouldn't want to live in a world in which people can't drive Ferrari's just because it's not compassionate to drive one while other people can't.
I understand the gist of most of your posts, but your argument against the ranking system appears flawed to me. Would you say that a country with one Ferrari has the best transportation system? I assume not. The WHO is ranking a country's health system, not just the ability to get good/great healthcare.

I believe this issue should be viewed, and addressed, as we view the right to fair representation. If you can not afford a lawyer, the state will assign one to you (and pay for it), otherwise you have the right to pay for your own. I don't think the public option and the free market are mutually exclusive... quite the contrary; I believe there is a vision for these two to operate in tandem.
 

Tide1986

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American health care is not the best in the world it is the most expensive. Those who have healthcare provided to them by their employer will continue to say there is nothing wrong with health care in America while the millions who can't afford healthcare beg to differ. The medical profession, insurance, pharmaceuticals, and hospital expenses are out of control. The billing, procedure process and paperwork is ridiculous and many of the health laws are outdated.

I'm not saying the US health care sucks just that it is overpriced for what you get and that causes some people to not be able to afford prescriptions, follow up visits and treatment. America is an obese nation, worst in the world, which adds to the problem and a huge number of homeless and illegals crowd the ERs in hospitals. Infant mortality rates in the US is also extremely high and many people aren't getting the preventive care that makes for a healthy population.

I also live under the French medical program, it is not socialized medicine, it covers everyone and those who can afford it buy supplemental insurance. Many things i would have to go to a doctor for in the US I can get at a pharmacy or a paramedic can attend to me. I find it a much cheaper and user friendly health care system. There are also no long waiting lines you hear about in some countries. I seldom have to wait more than 10-15 min to see my doctor.

I will close by saying those running the medical industry in America need to be taken out and beat with a length of surgical tubing then stabbed in the eye with a syringe. You talk about big government, they have big medical.
Here's a great article that addresses the "out of control" nature of some of our health care institutions -- the article is entertaining yet substantive. The author is both a doctor and a lawyer (interesting combination):

http://online.wsj.com/articles/eric-michael-david-health-care-and-the-20-000-bruise-1409700173

As a doctor and a lawyer, I like to think I'm pretty good at navigating the health-care system. So when my wife and I found a large swollen bruise on our 3-year-old son's head more than a week after he had fallen off his scooter, I was confident we could get him a CT scan at a reasonable cost.

We live near one of the top pediatric emergency rooms in the country. The care was
spectacular. My son was diagnosed with a small, 11-day-old bleed inside his head, which was healing, and insignificant.

I was proud to see the health-care system working, to see academic medicine working, and most of all to see my son run as fast as he could out of the ER two hours later.

Then the bill arrived, and you know where this is going: $20,000. Our insurance had already paid $17,000, and we owed $3,000 out-of-pocket. What for? Among the items listed on the printout was a $10,000 charge for a "trauma team activation." This made me want to give consumers some very simple tips on how to fight their health-care bills, so here goes...


And of course, it's always good to run across and reread a bayoutider post.
 

bama_wayne1

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What didn't I clarify? Rights are something that you have that the government can't take away. Pelosi's concept that rights are something the government gives to you is not only dishonest, it's also a dangerous concept. Since health care is not one of the enumerated powers given to the federal government, the feds are supposed to be silent on this issue (unless and until the Constitution is amended). If citizens of a state want that level of governmental involvement, bully for them. Hopefully they'll do an economic analysis and come up with a plan that is not just a massive entitlement that saddles the productive citizens of that state with the bill.
Since so many policies were cancelled by the government's edict it MUST NOT be a right.
 

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