"Hobbits just supporting characters in "Rings"....by Roger Ebert

LTBF

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B'ham,
"We invest hobbits with qualities that cannot be visualized. In my mind (Roger Ebert's mind), they are good-hearted, bustling, chatty little creatures who live in tree houses or burrows, and dress like the merry men of Robin Hood-in smaller sizes, of course. They eat seven or eight times a day, like to take naps, have never been far from home, and have eyes that grow wide at the sounds of the night. They are like children grown up or grown old, and when they rise to an occasion it takes true heroism, for they are timid by nature and would rather avoid a fight.

"Such notions about hobbits can be found in The Lord of the Rings:Fellowship of the Ring, but the hobbits themselves have been pushed off center stage. If the books are about brave little creatures who enlist powerful men and wizards to help them in a dangerous crusade, the movie is about powerful men and wizards who embark on a dangerous crusade and take along the hobbits. That is not true of every scene or episode, but by the end Fellowshipadds up to more of a sword-and-scorcery epic than a realization of the more naive and guileless vision of J.R.R. Tolkien.

"The Ring Trilogy embodies the kind of innocence that belongs to an earlier, gentler time. The Hollywood that made The Wizard of Oz might have been equal to it. But Fellowshipis a film that comes after Gladiator and Matrix, and it instinctively ramps up to the genre of the overwrought special-effects action picture. That it transcends this genre-that it is a well-crafted and sometimes stirring adventure-is to its credit. But a true visualization of Tolkien's Middle-earth it is not.

"Wondering if the trilogy could possibly be as action-packed as this film, I searched my memory for sustained action scenes and finally turned to the books themselves, which I had not read since the 1970s. The chapter "The Bridge of Khazad-dum" provides the basis for perhaps the most sensational action scene in the film, in which Gandalf the wizard stands on an unstable rock bridge over a chasm, and must engage in a deadly swordfight with the monstrous Balrog. This is an exciting scene, done with state-of-the-art special effects and sound that shakes the theater. In the book, I was not surprised to discover, the entire scene requires less than 500 words.

"Settling down with my book, the one-volume 1969 India paper edition, I read or skimmed for an hour or so. It was as I remembered it. The trilogy is mostly about leaving places, going places, being places, and going on to other places, all amid fearful portents and speculations. There are a great many mountains, valleys, streams, villages, caves, residences, grottos, bowers, fields, high roads and low roads, and along them the hobbits and their larger companions travel while paying great attention to mealtimes. Landscapes are described with the faithful detail of a Victorian travel-writer. The travelers meet strange and fascinating characters along the way, some of them friendly, some of them not, some of them of an order far above hobbits or even men. Sometimes they must fight to defend themselves or to keep possession of the Ring, but mostly the trilogy is an unfolding, a guest, a journey, told in an elevated, archaic, romantic prose styles that tests our capacity for the declarative voice.

"Reading it, I remembered why I liked it in the first place. It was reassuring. You could tell by holding the book in your hands that there were many pages to go, many sights to see, many adventures to share. I cherished the way it paused for songs and poems, which the movie has no time for. Like The Tale of Genji, which some say is the first novel, LOTR is not about a narrative arc or the growth of the characters, but about a long series of episodes in which the essential nature of the characters is demonstrated again and again (and again). The Ring, which provides the purpose for the journey, serves Tolkien as the ideal MacGuffin, motivating an epic quest while mostly staying right there on a chain around Frodo's neck.

"Peter Jackson, the New Zealand director who masterminded this film (and two more to follow, in a $300 million undertaking), has made a work for, and of, our times. It will be embraced, I suspect, by many Rings fans and take on aspects of a cult. It is a candidate for many Oscars. It is an awesome production in its daring and breadth, and there are small touches that are just right; the hobbits many not look like my idea of hobbits (may, indeed, look like full-sized humans made to seem smaller through visual trickery), but they have the right combination of twinkle and pluck in their gaze-especially Elijah Wood as Frodo and Ian Holm as the worried Bilbo.

"Yet the taller characters seem to stand astride the little hobbit world and steal the story away. Gandalf the good wizard (Ian McKellen) and Saruman the treacherous wizard (Christopher Lee) and Aragorn (Vigo Mortensen), who is the warrior known as Stider, are so well-seen and acted, so fearsome in battle, that we can't imagine the hobbits getting anywhere without them. The elf Arwen (Liv Tyler), the elf queen Galadriel (Cate Blanchett) and Arwen's father Elrond (Hugo Weaving) are not small like literary elves ("Very tall they were," the book tells us), and here they tower like Norse gods and goddesses, accompanied by so much dramatic sound and lightning that it's a wonder they can think to speak, with all the distractions.

"Jackson has used modern special effects to great purpose in several shots, especialy one where a massive wall of water forms and reforms into wraiths of charging stallions.

"The film is remarkably well-made. But it does go on, and on, and on-more vistas, more forests, more sounds in the nights, more fearsome creatures, more prophecies, more visions, more dire warnings, more close calls, until we realize this sort of thing can continue indefinitely. "This tale grew in the telling," Tolkien tells us in the famous first words of his Foreword; it's as if Tolkien, and now Jackson, grew so fond of the journey they dreaded the destination.

"That FOTR doesn't match my imaginary vision of Middle-earth is my problem, not yours. Perhaps it will look exactly as you think it should. But some may regret that the hobbits have been pushed out of the foreground and reduced to supporting characters. And the movie depends on action scenes much more that Tolkien did. In a statement last week, Tolkiens's son Christopher, who is the "literary protector" of his fther's works, said: "My own positionis that LOTR is peculiarly unsuitable for transformation into visual dramatic form." That is probably true, and Jackson, instead of transforming it, has transmuted it into a sword-and-scorcery epic in the modern style, containing many of the same characters and incidents."
 

bayoutider

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Exceptional review of the movie. Actually, I thought the hobbit village looked as it should and even the characters looked real to me. My opinion is that the hobbits are supporting characters. You are very correct in the fact that the book spends more pages describing places or things than on action events. I think the movie was very well done but I did miss the songs.

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At a Red Elephant Club meeting Dennis Franchione was asked why he came to Alabama. "To win a National championship" was his answer. "Just one?" was their reply.

"STRENGTH AND HONOR" Russell Crowe in Gladiator

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LTBF

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Oct 13, 1999
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B'ham,
I do believe the hobbits will cease to be supporting characters in Parts II and III. It could not be otherwise, could it?

Where did part I end? Same place as book?
When Frodo and Sam set off with the ring, they HAVE to be the stars, with no help from any big people.

I'm going Sunday. I won't wait another day. I expect to see it at least several times.

A question: In Ebert's review, he talks about Gandalf fighting the Balrog with a sword. In the book, didn't he have only his staff? Am I remembering it incorrectly? I'll try to go back and see how it was written.

Did Tom Bombadil make it into the movie?

ROLL TIDE FOREVER!
 

bayoutider

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The movie ends with Frodo and Sam disappearing into the forest after crossing the river. It is a bit different than the book after I have reviewed some parts. In the movie Gandalf did have a sword but in the book the balrog was fought by Gandalf weilding only a staff in the book he struck the bridge with his staff which broke and fell from his hands and in both the book and the movie the balrog caught Gandalf with his whip as he fell into the dark pit. I think you should enjoy the movie as it is quite entertaining and is probably as true to the book as film and Hollywood can be given the time limit they have to work with. Tolkien in his own words says he doesn't worry about how others view his works. In his own words the prime motive was the desire of a story teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of readers, amuse them, delight them and at times maybe excite them or deeply move them. As a guide he had only his own feelings for what is appealing or moving. I think the movie is the same. A really long saga that tries to hold the viewers attention, delight them and at times excite or move them. It did me. I was entertained and that is all I ask of a film.

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At a Red Elephant Club meeting Dennis Franchione was asked why he came to Alabama. "To win a National championship" was his answer. "Just one?" was their reply.

"STRENGTH AND HONOR" Russell Crowe in Gladiator

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[This message has been edited by bayoutider (edited December 22, 2001).]
 

bayoutider

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LTBF, sorry I forgot to address your last question about Tom Bombadil. No, I do not recall him being mentioned in the movie. But, that's not to say I missed or forgot. I could have had a senior moment during the film. I do want to see it again and will certainly add the movie to my library. I have the cartoon version on VCR of The Hobbit and LOTR which was done badly but is entertaining for the little ones.

Like I said earlier they had a lot of book to compress into a short time and somethings were cut and some things expanded.

------------------
At a Red Elephant Club meeting Dennis Franchione was asked why he came to Alabama. "To win a National championship" was his answer. "Just one?" was their reply.

"STRENGTH AND HONOR" Russell Crowe in Gladiator

SNASS - bayoutider
 

bobstod

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Well, Caroline, that was just the right thing to drink my coffee and eat my bagel with this morning! Thanks for the "cut and paste"! I will have to wait a few more days (with imapatience, I admit), since I will be going with my son-in-law, and they have weekend company. Then Monday is Christmas Eve...(sigh).

Obviously, Roger Ebert has very little grasp of LOTR, and displays a wealth of ignorance in his assessment of the book, and consequently the movie. If he hasn't picked the book up since the seventies, he's spending too much time on his butt in a movie chair and not enough reading good literature.

His main assertion, that the book is about "hobbits enlisting the aid of powerful men and wizards" misses the point about as far as imagination allows. The ring resides quietly in the Shire for half a century before Gandalf convinces Frodo to take it away. And Frodo repeatedly insists he has no idea what should be done, and never imagines that he will be asked to bear it into great peril. The Hobbits are, throughout the entire trilogy, under the guidance and protection of the great and the wise. Even Frodo and Sam, on their own for fully two thirds of the story, are simply carrying forward (heroically) with a task assigned them by the Council of Elrond.

Then his flippant remark about the absense of character development underlines his vast store of ignorance and leaves no doubt that he speaks truthfully when he says he spent "an hour or so" reading and skimming the book. I guess we have to understand that he makes his living talking about movies, and doesn't have time for serious literary criticism. He should have spent his "hour or so" reading this board!

No character development! MY A$$!! Does the Frodo in The Cleansing of the Shire, with his missing finger and his haunted seriousness, resemble the adventure-seeking youngster in the early chapters? What about Strider, who transforms, chapter after chapter, from a rough wayfarer into a wise and powerful king? What about Sauruman, for pity's sake? From a forbidding and powerful wizard to a comic-book petty mafia capo? And the fact that Sam Gangee is essentially unchanged by his involvement with the mighty and the forbidding is an intentional literary allegory that represents the endurance and character of the English people through a history of struggle against great odds.

Well, I'm ranting, and preaching to the choir as well. I want to see some opinion about the work from somebody who understands and appreciates it, though; not Roger Ebert's fifteen-minute snapshot from the point of view of Joe Schidt the Ragman...

But I wasn't being sarcastic, Caroline, when I began this rant, about my appreciation of your post. My Sunday paper has not arrived yet, and I took my coffee and bagel to the computer desk. Your posts, and the follow-ups by you and Bayou, were like having pleasant company for breakfast. Thank you!

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bayoutider

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Thanks for the kind comments, I have been much of a stranger to this board but retirement leaves me with some new found time on my hands. I do read and am quite a film and music buff. Perhaps I can add to this forum from time to time. I see an old friend BamaCLM posting here, so hello to her.

------------------
At a Red Elephant Club meeting Dennis Franchione was asked why he came to Alabama. "To win a National championship" was his answer. "Just one?" was their reply.

"STRENGTH AND HONOR" Russell Crowe in Gladiator

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LTBF

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Oct 13, 1999
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B'ham,
Well, Bob and all, I went to see LOTR:FOTR today, and I was delighted with it. For a movie three hours long, and for a person with restless legs who gets antsy sitting in one position for long, I endured it well!

Of course, I did take 1/2 of one of my pills before I went in, but I was so entranced by it. Riveted is more like it.

And, Bob, I concur with you heartily about Roger Ebert. I think he is an excelled movie critic, and I enjoy his reviews, but he missed the mark here, obviously because he spent "an hour or two skimming the book." He should have read longer and more deeply.

In the part of the book covered by this movie, the hobbits were indeed under the protection of the high and mighty. That did not make them bit players, and it was not a case of the high and mighty carrying the ring, and the hobbits tagging along, as Ebert suggested.

I also agree absolutely about the character development thing. You can see Frodo growing before your eyes.

The casting was absolutely perfect. The acting was wonderful. The scenery was magnificent. My son and I could spot a few things that were somewhat different. The Barrow wights and Tm Bombadil were not included. It was Arwen who rode out to meet them after their escape from the ring wraiths at Weatherop, and not Glorfindel the elf, as in the book, but I think that made more sense that introducing a new character who would never be seen again.

The special effects were just dynamite. This movie could not have been made 10 years ago.

I thought the introduction to the movie, before the title, was masterful, as it made it possible for people who had never read the book, like my husband, to understand what was happening, and the significance of the ring. A few things were taken out of sequence and made sense in the storytelling.

For example, in the book, when Gandalf is supposed to meet the hobbits in Bree, and then doesn't show up, we don't know until much later why he doesn't come. The scene in Bree is cut with the scene at Isengard where Saruman imprisons Gandalf, so we know why right away in the movie.

I'll keep thinking about this, and post later. I WILL see it again.

BTW, I heard that it grossed $18 million on the first day, and that was a WEDNESDAY.
The theater was not full today, but there was a very respectable crowd.

ROLL TIDE FOREVER!
 

bayoutider

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Glad you liked it LTBF. I agree the movie would not have been the same if filmed 10 years ago. I thought it was superb the way the hobbits were full size people made to look smaller by film trickery. And you are right on about the scenery. Tolkien spent much time telling the reader about places, people, creatures and things that a picture does in a few frames. This is what compresses much of the book. For a 3 hour movie it moves very fast. I went to the first show on the first day (wed) and the theater was about 90% full. I understand the later showings were sold out. I'm ready for the next film already.

------------------
At a Red Elephant Club meeting Dennis Franchione was asked why he came to Alabama. "To win a National championship" was his answer. "Just one?" was their reply.

"STRENGTH AND HONOR" Russell Crowe in Gladiator

SNASS - bayoutider
 

LTBF

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Oct 13, 1999
871
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B'ham,
A few more comments RE: LOTR:FOTR.

The score was magnificent. I am very attuned to things auditory, and I actually listen to the score, as opposed to just having it set the mood. I don't know who did it, but it might win an Oscar. Was it John Williams? I don't think so, but I really don't know.

Lothlorien was not nearly so well fleshed out as Rivendell was. There were things cut from the Lothlorien part that maybe should have been included, by way of explaining what comes after. When the Ring company leaves Lothlorien, they are all wearing cloaks with the leaf-shaped pin holding them together at the neck. That was shown several times, with all the characters who were left, Gandalf of course having been dragged into the abyss by the balrog. I knew the significance of the pins, but it was not explained for the benefit of those who had not read the book, or who had not read it recently. That will probably be made clear in Part II.

The cloaks given the Company by the elves of Lothlorien was not commented on, nor was the gift of lembas (elf bread). The deep attachment of the members of the company to the Lady Galadriel, other than Frodo, was not explored. I especially missed the part about the deep devotion of Gimli for the Lady Galadriel, since at the beginning, when they first approach Lothlorien, Gimli calls her "the witch of the woods."

Usually, when I read a book first, and then see the movie, I am disappointed by the movie, so this time I was prepared to be disappointed, especially in light of all the hype about the movie. I WAS NOT disappointed. I couldn't, right now, tell you which I liked better. I guess I'll have to see the other parts before I can make that judgment. It really is hard, though, to think that anything could top the pure enthrallment (is there such a word?) of reading that book, with its abillty to stimulate one's imagination.

ROLL TIDE FOREVER!
 

bobstod

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I saw the movie last night and I was blown away by the care that Peter Jackson has taken to make the details "right" and interesting. I have to believe he was influenced by the Hildebrandt brothers (who did many of the Tolkein calendars) in designing the sets.

Did you see the interior of Bag End? JEEZ! What craftsmanship! What detail! I can see myself getting this movie on DVD and just studying the sets.

Carolyn, I noticed the leaf-shaped clasps and the cloaks, too. I noticed it first on Boromir. Since it was so prominently displayed in the shot, I wondered if maybe a scene from Lothlorien (where they were bestowed) had ended up on the cutting room floor...

I thought the segways where parts had been eliminated (Tom Bombadil, the Barrow Downs) worked extremely well. They cross on the Buckleberry Ferry, and Lo!, they are in Bree! That was clever!

I think Elijah Wood does a fine job as Frodo; but his complection is just too perfect! I think of Hobbits as sort of rough-complectioned.

Gimli is PERFECT! I just wish they would have developed his character more. I totally agree with the comment about his infatuation with Galadriel. That is too important to have missed. I'm sure we'll see it later. (The scene with Eomer would be bland without it; and it is one of the best scenes in Book Two).

I'm interested to see other opinions. Bayou, it is a pleasure having you on board! I hope you will come often, and help us with our next selection (after you finish TDOP, of course!)


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BamaCLM

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Can't comment on this thread, as I haven't seen the movie, and don't know when I will, but I wanted to welcome Bayou to this board. I left a Holiday greeting over on the "other" board
. I didn't know it was back up. Have a great retirement Bayou and to all of you, a very Merry Christmas.

Carolyn
 

bayoutider

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Thanks again all for making me feel so welcome. LTBF, audo has been a lifelong passion of mine as a musician and an audiophyle. I have devoted a large portion of my life to music and the creation and re-creation of music. I have the soundtrack on CD. The music was composed, orchestrated and conducted by Howard Shore, Reprise Records. Much of it reminds me of the score from The Omen.

Something to ponder about the film, so many have read the books perhaps the film maker is taking the audience for granted that we know more than the film can produce in the time allowed. Fact, the book cannot be compressed into 3 hours without some misgivings. Instead of greeving about the cloak clasps or the development of some characters, greeve for those that will see the movie and still be ignorant of the finer points of the books when they still don't read them. I attended the movie with someone that had never read the LOTR but did know what a Hobbit was. She is now planning to read the trilogy to be better prepaired for the rest of the episodes. In essence many viewers will know more and visualise more than the portion of the audience that has never cracked a book. Do any others think this is true?

I did take the time to look at my fellow movie goers and as I expected I could almost recognize the ones that had read the books. They almost had the Trekky (Star Treck) look about them. LOL

And bobstod, you are so right about the craftsmanship. Bagend was superb. I would love to have an afternoon alone inside with it's creator. What an interior! I can see I will need to see the movie again soon.
 

LTBF

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Oct 13, 1999
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B'ham,
I too attended the movie with someone who has not read the trilogy (and never will), and someone who has, and is currently rereading it.

It was nice to be able to discuss the fine points with someone who understands them. I think the movie was set up in such a way that Mr. LTBF could understand it just fine, even without the finer points.

Last night I began rereading (really just skimming) the parts that were portrayed in the movie. The dialogue is mostly exactly from the book.

Time is portrayed somewhat differently in the movie. In the movie, you get the feeling that right after Bilbo's eleventy-first birthday party, Frodo was informed about the danger of the ring, and then they started off on the quest.

In the book it was seventeen years before the quest started. Frodo did not even see Gandalf for nine of those years!

There were other places where time seemed to be really compressed.

ROLL TIDE FOREVER!
 

LTBF

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Oct 13, 1999
871
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B'ham,
BTW, I saw on the news today that by the time Christmas is over, LOTR:FOTR will have grossed $100 million, so I think it will have paid for itself, and Peter Jackson can breathe more easily.

Laura came home this afternoon and found out that I had already seen it. She is now mad at me, and even though I offered to go again, she is not appeased.

ROLL TIDE FOREVER!
 

bayoutider

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Question about the language the elves spoke. Was it Gaelic, Welch, or some made up language. I thought it was a beautiful touch. The words seemed so right though I didn't understand a word of it. I also thought this was a part where the book was expanded because hollywood thought there needed to be a love scene.

------------------
At a Red Elephant Club meeting Dennis Franchione was asked why he came to Alabama. "To win a National championship" was his answer. "Just one?" was their reply.

"STRENGTH AND HONOR" Russell Crowe in Gladiator

SNASS - bayoutider
 

bobstod

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Bayou, the language was Elvish, entirely invented by JRRT, including the alphabet, which is appendixed at the end of volume three.

Tolkein was a professor of ancient languages, so it as probably something he had been working on long before he began LOTR. It IS a beautiful language, and many of the words seem strangely apt.

Caroline, I had the same problem with my oldest son, Rob. You may remember, I read the trilogy aloud to him over a six-week period when he was in junior HS. We have been dreaming of a full-length movie for twenty-five years or so! At one time, Rob believed he would go into movie production and produce it himself!

But I am up in Delaware for Christmas and January, and he is back in L.A. (Daphne)

We were able to work it out, though...we are both going to see it again, together, when I get home. Neither one of us could wait that long (and neither could my son-in-law)!

Upon a full two-days reflection, I have not found much to complain about in this movie. The sets (both natural outdoors and created ones, like Moria) were carefully done, with great respect for the original descriptions. I think Elijah Wood is too pretty to fit my mental image of Frodo, but he does a wonderful job, so far, with the acting. I wish they would have allowed Sam to play more of the traditional English servant, very much like a British Tar. His demeanor is as if he were Frodo's equal, and that's not the way the part was written. I wonder if a little bit of modern English 'political correctness' has crept in to the direction there.

Gimli is PERFECT! I may have said that before. I sure hope they develop his character more fully later on. If you remember, we didn't really get to know him very well until the second book.

I think I pictured Aragorn as more muscular and physically imposing, but I feel certain that before long I will not be able to see any other mental image than the man they chose for the part. He is really good, and I think his acting is the best of show, so far.

I am so happy that the movie looks like being a huge success, financially. The faith shown by Peter Jackson, in staying so true to Tolkein's vision, should be rewarded. He took a huge risk. It affirms something deep rooted in my soul that doing something right and truthful can lead to success...



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LTBF

1st Team
Oct 13, 1999
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B'ham,
Well, I went to see it again today, with Laura. She had approximately the same reservations that I did. I thought that Lothlorian got short shrift.

I believe the language spoken is Celtic. Although Tolkien did invent an Elvish language, I think it would be hard to speak such a language.

I know the music at the end, which sounded Elvish, was sung by Enya, who often records in Celtic, and has a beautiful, ethereal voice.

I saw Plato at the party tonight, and he has seen it as well. I tried to get him to come on this board and share his thoughts with us. Maybe he will. I hope that others will comment as well.

ROLL TIDE FOREVER!
 

BamaNation

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Hey LTBF & bob (and others)

...

We went to see LOTR on the first showing in London on opening day and I must say i wanted to turn around and watch it again. time did seem compressed quite a lot and some of the nuances that i think are key to later episodes in the story were cut short or left out entirely, but i'm sure that's creative license at work. Overall, I thought it was a fantastic representation, particularly for "only" 3 hrs of film. Each movie really needs to be 5 hrs long (at least) to get a fuller effect of the detail in the book, but that would bore to tears those who don't love it as much as we.

Also, I just finished the trilogy on Sunday, just before we got on the plane to move back across the big pond! it had been over 15 years since i last read it, and i must say i must have been asleep when i read it previously, because i didn't remember much of ANYTHING!

i'm going to purchase the other related books soon and read them to get a deeper understanding of the lore that is referred to so much throughout LOTR.
 

LTBF

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Oct 13, 1999
871
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B'ham,
Brett, you are absolutely correct about all the things you miss when you read LOTR. Even when you try to read it carefully, there are so many things to digest that thingss get overlooked.

I read it during the summer, and I have just finished rereading the parts covered by FOTR, or at least skimming it, and I still saw things tht I didn't catch earlier.

Laura and I want to take you and Jill to a favorite restaurant in Hotlanta, the Floataway Cafe, when we can manage it. Hope to see you soon!

ROLL TIDE FOREVER!
 

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