Poor Poor Gandalf ......... No greater love .

Twelve , I don ' t think it was a foregone conclusion that Frodo would be the ringbearer , even though there is reason to believe that Gandalf had learned a lot about the ring and it ' s significance in Saruman ' s Tower .

Tolkein is careful ( IMO ) to insure that his characters have complete freedom of choice . To do otherwise would rob the story of its depth .

For instance , how much more heroic ( and tragic ) it is that Frodo takes on this burden , which he must unquestionably believe will lead to horrible torture , death , and failure of all the races , knowing that he is free to refuse it ? How moving that he accepts it so simply , and with such vulnerability : " I will take the ring ... but I do not know the way ".

I particularly like your observation about Gandalf as a leader . I believe that a large measure of what this tale has to offer us is about leadership . Much of it was written when England was at war with Germany , and Winston Churchhill emerged as possibly one of the greatest leaders and spokesmen of national policy the world has ever seen .

Aragorn now emerges as the leader of the fellowship , and although he is among wise and powerful companions ( particularly Legolas ), he is deferred to ; and he continues to grow as a leader for the remainder of the story .

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ALABAMA: Tradition; Class; A name to respect in College Football

" Moving " is exactly the word I would use about that . It brings to mind how very many things there are in this work that ' move ' me .

It is a man ' s book , in many ways ; and I hope I don ' t offend our highly valued and appreciated women colleagues when I say that .
Much of what I admire about it is the instruction it gives about how to be a man ; how to be responsible and loyal and brave in the face of terrible odds . How to be a leader without bragadoccio , and a follower without loss of dignity .

Perhaps that is chauvanistic . In The Deed of Paksinarrion , many of the same lessons are taught ; but the protagonist is a woman . What do you think , Carolyn ? Will you take me to task , or do you agree with me ?

But my point was , stories that illustrate the kind of behavior that has been discussed in this thread : Frodo ' s acceptance of the task , and Aragorn ' s quiet assumption of leadership , move me . Like Sam moves me when he cotton ' s on to Frodo ' s secret plans at the end of FOTR ... and later , as you will discover , Twelve , when he makes another heroic and moving decision ...


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ALABAMA: Tradition; Class; A name to respect in College Football

ttt

I agree with you Bob , as to what both books teach . I just think that it is referrable to both men AND women of character . Especially so now in this strange new world we have created .

I saw on the news tonight that a town in Kansas , I think , was divided because students had plagerized an assignment . Their teacher recognized this , found the article on the internet , highlighted everything copied , showed it to the principal who conferred with 2 other people ( might have been board members ) and all decided that every plagerized assignment would receive - 0 -. The parents got up in arms and deluged the teacher and the board , and she was instructed to grade them up . She resigned . Now the other parents are up in arms , and all are fighting at parent meetings , school board meetings , etc . I wish I could remember what grade it was , but it was a science project , I think it was middle school .

What is this showing the children ? Where is the leadership ? Where is the courage to stand behind their teacher ? Doesn ' t sound much like LOTR , but most don ' t live an epic adventure , but have to apply lessons learned to their ( usually ) average lives , and I sometimes wonder how well we are doing in that respect . I think LOTR , Harry Potter , THOP , should be required reading in schools . They teach morals and values that seem to be vanishing from this world . Or am I seeing a glass half empty , instead of half full ?

The glass is half full , Carolyn . At LEAST half full . Take my word for it !

But I know what you mean . I wish I could be king , because I would make every schoolchild learn spirituality , hope , optimism , and techniques for finding those things within themselves whenever they needed them .

But such a course in public schools would be opposed by religionists and non - religionists alike . Such enlightenment is still centuries away , I fear . But it will come .

I have been gratified to see Twelve posting about his progress in LOTR . I hope he will continue , and that everybody will encourage him to share his experience with us . What a joy to watch someone new to LOTR become entranced !

I am definitely interested in SKP ' s new book , BTW . I ' ll join you in touting it when it comes out .

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ALABAMA: Tradition; Class; A name to respect in College Football

The nature of the Ring is such that not only does it give great power , it perverts that power to evil use . When Boromir sugests using the Ring to defeat the Enemy , Elrond says :

" We cannot use the Ruling Ring ... It belongs to Sauron ... and it is altogether evil ... The very desire of it corrupts the heart ... If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor , using his own arts , he would then set himself on Sauron ' s throne , and yet another Dark Lord would appear ... I fear to take the Ring to hide it . I will not take the Ring to wield it ."

Neither Elrond or Gandalf or Aragorn or Boromir or anyone who desires power can safely take the Ring . Only the Hobbits ( who do not desire power ) can resist the Ring but even the Hobbits are not immune to its influence . Frodo assumes a burden that will weigh heavilly upon him .

It was not foreordained that Frodo should take the Ring but it became clear to him that of all those at the council only he might be capable of enduring the power of the Ring while returning it to the Fire where it could be unmade . He did not want to take the Ring but he chose to do do so of his own free will . As often happens in times of crisis , " small " people rise to accomplish great deeds that the mighty can not .

" The road must be trod , but it will be very hard . And neither strength nor wisdom will carry us far upon it . This quest may be attempted by the weak with as much hope as the strong . Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world : small hands do them because they must , while eyes of the great are elsewhere ."

[ QUOTE ] Originally posted by bobstod :
[ B ]
But I know what you mean . I wish I could be king , because I would [ i ] make [/ i ] every schoolchild learn spirituality , hope , optimism , and techniques for finding those things within themselves whenever they needed them .

[/ B ][/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your thought and I think your intention , but I am discussing how we use words on the non - sports board and I must object to the use of the word ' make .'

I would prefer encourage . Sorry if I am splitting hairs . You are as always one of my favorite people out here .

I ' m not sure that FRODO knew he was the only one who could take the Ring without being totally subverted by it . I do think the OTHERS knew that .

I agree that Frodo took the Ring of his own free will , but reluctantly .

And , Stan , don ' t get me started on the NS board . I would NEVER try to discuss politics over there . Some of our very own Confederates are the worst offenders when it comes to being intolerant .

RYF !

You are dead right , Stan ! You nailed me fair and square , and me a guy who is a " fanatic for semantics "!

Of course my intention was to say that I would teach the course ( and see that it was taught ), with the expectation and hope that many would learn to use the power that lies within us all : the power for good .

Nobody can ' make ' another person learn anything . But no attempt is being made to reveal to young impressionable minds the amazing power of our spiritual natures . You may say that such an effort is made everywhere by churches , and I would have to concede with very grave restrictions . The problem there is that it comes with a ' hook '. There is no hook . The power is there , and it ' s free . Everybody should use it . If they did , the world would be a better place .

To parallel the message in LOTR , observe how the forces of good are working all the time , but demanding nothing . It is the nature of the universe in Middle Earth . ( Here too , IMHO ). The vial of Galadriel is the most excellent example . It is given freely . It provides pure light . It exacts no toll for its use .

The Ring , on the other hand , as so ably pointed out by tosk , ( thanks , tosk ), grants great power , but carries a huge ' hook '.

LTBF has brought out that LOTR expresses , in its deepest message , a philosophy that is much in tune with my own . That is unmitigated truth . However , when I first found the books , I was not yet thirty years old , and my spirituality was virtually nonexistant . I didn ' t come to my Unity beliefs until I was in my forties . Yet , the books captured me and held me through all those years , and hold me still .

No way would I attribute the growth of my spiritual beliefs to LOTR . The came from pain and need , and they came over a long time . But LOTR expresses them in a multitude of ways , and it is richer , to me , because of that .

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ALABAMA: Tradition; Class; A name to respect in College Football

Thanks for taking my criticism in the spirit that it was intended.