The perception of college football vs. the NFL

HartselleTider · Feb 14, 2012

colbysullivan said:
The NFL is watered down precisely because it has the best players in the world. The players are so good that they end up canceling each other out. The NFL is considered to be a passing league, but most of the time it's "run up the middle on 1st and 2nd down, pass on 3rd....punt". Who wants to watch that? IMO the NFL is totally lame. How do you explain a team that was 7-7 at one point ended up being the Super Bowl champion? Are we seriously supposed to believe the Giants were the best team this year? Sorry I'm not buying what the NFL is selling.

Not only that, it's the lack of innovation in the NFL that I've always found to be extremely bland. Innovation in football has always started at the high school and college level. There are almost no innovators in the NFL, only copycats. Thus why the NFL is constantly referred to as "a copycat league".

A lot of what they do is recycle head coaches who failed elsewhere for the most part. They'll come in and run the same bland, boring, non-innovative systems that got them nowhere in their previous stint. Rinse. Repeat.

I think coaching in the NFL is actually very little to do with actual "coaching", and more to do with managing personalities and egos.

DiamondDust · Feb 14, 2012

HartselleTider said:
Not only that, it's the lack of innovation in the NFL that I've always found to be extremely bland. Innovation in football has always started at the high school and college level. There are almost no innovators in the NFL, only copycats. Thus why the NFL is constantly referred to as "a copycat league".

A lot of what they do is recycle head coaches who failed elsewhere for the most part. They'll come in and run the same bland, boring, non-innovative systems that got them nowhere in their previous stint. Rinse. Repeat.

I think coaching in the NFL is actually very little to do with actual "coaching", and more to do with managing personalities and egos.

And honestly... you'll only see innovation on the high school and college level at the lesser divisions. You are not about to see elite D-1 teams try to do things "innovative". Too much to lose via too much risk. Like the NFL, they'll let the teams in D-II and such create the new offenses and formations... and they'll copy them when it's best for them. Alabama deciding to use the Pistol formation is a good example of this. Heck, Alabama's entire offense philosophy is a good example of this... which is why it's labeled as a pro-set. Low risk, high reward.

The last big thing the NFL copied was the Wildcat. It was successful for some teams, such as Miami. It stopped being successful because the defenses adapted and quickly learned how to shut it down.

DiamondDust · Feb 14, 2012

JeffAtlanta said:
That was sort of my point though. I like the NFL, but it is watered down as some positions have become relegated to inexpensive role-player or rent-a-player status. Rather than trying to field the best player at every position, teams are now forced to concede many positions to be merely serviceable.

New England wins because they manage their roster under the current system better than most. The overall talent level of the Patriots, though, would be far below that of the dynasties of the pre-salary cap era.

They also benefit from their own success as players in the twilight of their career are willing to play for them on the cheap to try to win a championship before retiring. Rodney Harrison is a prime example.

Fair enough assessment.

HartselleTider · Feb 14, 2012

DiamondDust said:
I think it also had a lot to do with Jim Caldwell's coaching ability.

That's kinda my point I just made in my previous post about actual coaching in the NFL. Caldwell didn't sign on to have to actually.... you know.... coach....

He was just supposed to manage personalities while Peyton did all the coaching and ran the show. When they had to wing it without the best coach/quarterback in the league, the actual "coaching" (or lackthereof) was exposed, along with a poor roster.

I don't think there's more than half a dozen or so head coaches in the NFL that could outcoach a guy like Chip Kelly or Chris Peterson if they had the exact same talent.

colbysullivan · Feb 14, 2012

DiamondDust said:
I'm sorry I missed the memo where the elite league of professional football should have something other than the best players going against each other. I guess it all needs to be NFL talent vs. CFL talent each Sunday. In college, do you hate it when elite teams play each other as well?

The explanation of the Giants winning is the explanation of any playoff system: They got hot at the right time and were built to play in those type of conditions.

We will have to agree to disagree then. IMO the NFL product does not even remotely compare to the college product. Also, you pretty much proved why I hate the NFL (or any playoff system for that matter). It's not about who's the best team, it's about what team is playing the best at the end of the year....aka LAME

DiamondDust · Feb 14, 2012

HartselleTider said:
That's kinda my point I just made in my previous post about actual coaching in the NFL. Caldwell didn't sign on to have to actually.... you know.... coach....

He was just supposed to manage personalities while Peyton did all the coaching and ran the show. When they had to wing it without the best coach/quarterback in the league, the actual "coaching" (or lackthereof) was exposed, along with a poor roster.

I don't think there's more than half a dozen or so head coaches in the NFL that could outcoach a guy like Chip Kelly or Chris Peterson if they had the exact same talent.

I'll give you that. The NFL does recycle coaches because, honestly, owners and G.M.'s tend to be willing to go that route than an unknown or someone from college. With a league of 32 teams and such, you tend to become familiar with who is working where.

DiamondDust · Feb 14, 2012

colbysullivan said:
We will have to agree to disagree then. IMO the NFL product does not even remotely compare to the college product. Also, you pretty much proved why I hate the NFL (or any playoff system for that matter). It's not about who's the best team, it's about what team is playing the best at the end of the year....aka LAME

Again, I would like specifics as to why the college game is better than the pro-game. I love them both, but I want to hear why people think college is better on the field. I'm not talking about the glitz, glamour, and pageantry. I'm talking about from the opening kickoff to the end of the 4th quarter. The actual game of football being played.

JeffAtlanta · Feb 14, 2012

NFL are still expected to coach though. The NBA and MLB are both player's leagues and the coach's job is primarily to manage personalities. The NFL is still a scheme driven league especially since player development has been devalued, so a NFL coach that just tries to manage personalities (e.g. several Dallas hires) won't go very far.

colbysullivan · Feb 14, 2012

DiamondDust said:
Again, I would like specifics as to why the college game is better than the pro-game. I love them both, but I want to hear why people think college is better on the field. I'm not talking about the glitz, glamour, and pageantry. I'm talking about from the opening kickoff to the end of the 4th quarter. The actual game of football being played.

Ok that's fair. If you can't tell already, I really hate the NFL so I get pretty defensive about college football

Well for starters, I don't like the rules/penalties in the NFL. I remember when defensive players were actually allowed to make a tackle without getting flagged. Also, I'm sorry but why in the world is pass interference a spot foul? Are we just assuming the player would have made the catch? I understand we've already established they are the best players in the world, but even the best players make mistakes. That's why there's an "E" on MLB scoreboards.

Also, why is it that you can literally fall down and get up as long as no one touched you? That goes against everything that every player has learned at EVERY level of football. I just don't like the fact that the NFL has so many different rules. Remember when you couldn't even go for a 2 point conversion? Seriously?

IMO the replay system in college is much better (even if they do get it wrong from time to time) and don't even get me started on overtime in the NFL. The 2 minute warning is funny too. Again, it's one of those things the NFL feels like they're entitled to, so they do it.

DiamondDust · Feb 14, 2012

colbysullivan said:
Ok that's fair. If you can't tell already, I really hate the NFL so I get pretty defensive about college football Well for starters, I don't like the rules/penalties in the NFL. I remember when defensive players were actually allowed to make a tackle without getting flagged. Also, I'm sorry but why in the world is pass interference a spot foul? Are we just assuming the player would have made the catch? I understand we've already established they are the best players in the world, but even the best players make mistakes. That's why there's an "E" on MLB scoreboards.

Also, why is it that you can literally fall down and get up as long as no one touched you? That goes against everything that every player has learned at EVERY level of football. I just don't like the fact that the NFL has so many different rules. Remember when you couldn't even go for a 2 point conversion? Seriously?

IMO the replay system in college is much better (even if they do get it wrong from time to time) and don't even get me started on overtime in the NFL. The 2 minute warning is funny too. Again, it's one of those things the NFL feels like they're entitled to, so they do it.

Fair enough. Glad someone finally gave some specifics.

I won't disagree about the pass interference, but in terms of being down and getting up... the old NFL rule way back in the day allowed you to get up even if you got tackled. The whistle was what made the play dead.

As for overtime, I'm not a big fan of either as both have flaws (College game starts too close to scoring position, for example). I don't have a problem with the 2 minute warning and stoppage, though.

The rules are different because the games evolved at different rates.

HartselleTider · Feb 14, 2012

DiamondDust said:
Again, I would like specifics as to why the college game is better than the pro-game. I love them both, but I want to hear why people think college is better on the field. I'm not talking about the glitz, glamour, and pageantry. I'm talking about from the opening kickoff to the end of the 4th quarter. The actual game of football being played.

I can't speak for anybody else, but I'll just give you my opinion since you ask.

We've already covered a lot, but the other thing I don't like about the NFL is the rules slanted towards the passing game. You can't cover receivers anymore. DB's essentially have to LET guys catch the football, then politely ask them for permission to be tackled. Exaggerated I know, but the point is, receivers aren't afraid to go over the middle anymore. It's a joke. You can't hit a "defenseless" receiver anymore.

Secondly, you can't even give a quarterback a stern look anymore in the NFL without drawing a flag. The NFL had ONE 5,000 yard passer in it's history up until Drew Brees did it in 2008. This year I think you had 3 surpass the 5,000 yard mark, and would've been 4 had Aaron Rodgers played the last game of the season. Eli Manning only came 60+ yards from also hitting the 5,000 yard mark and making it 5 QB's.

The NFL doesn't want defense being played because it hurts the ratings, and in turn, hurts viewership. They want stats, stats, stats, and more stats so they can make more money off Fantasy Football, etc.

The NFL might as well be flag football to me. Did you happen to catch that hideous display of football they call the Pro-Bowl in Hawaii this year? Wait... I know... they can't risk getting a boo-boo... they make too much money.

The Pro-Bowl actually used to be a very, very competitive game with players giving max effort, because you didn't have as many prima donnas only playing because it's how they got rich. Otherwise, they'd be selling furniture.

It's just not my brand of football. They've even tried to eliminate kick returns by moving the kick-off up. Which is another reason why the QB's are shattering records left and right. Offenses are starting at the 20 more often.

HartselleTider · Feb 14, 2012

DiamondDust said:
Fair enough. Glad someone finally gave some specifics.

I won't disagree about the pass interference, but in terms of being down and getting up... the old NFL rule way back in the day allowed you to get up even if you got tackled. The whistle was what made the play dead.

As for overtime, I'm not a big fan of either as both have flaws (College game starts too close to scoring position, for example). I don't have a problem with the 2 minute warning and stoppage, though.

The rules are different because the games evolved at different rates.

Completely agree with that. I hate the overtime rules in college football. The offense is essentially given 3 points on the board automatically for all intents and purposes. All they have to do is not go backwards too far.

I don't think LSU would've gotten a shot at 3 points against Bama on Nov. 5th in overtime if they had to get two or three 1st downs against Bama's defense.

DiamondDust · Feb 14, 2012

HartselleTider said:
I can't speak for anybody else, but I'll just give you my opinion since you ask.

We've already covered a lot, but the other thing I don't like about the NFL is the rules slanted towards the passing game. You can't cover receivers anymore. DB's essentially have to LET guys catch the football, then politely ask them for permission to be tackled. Exaggerated I know, but the point is, receivers aren't afraid to go over the middle anymore. It's a joke. You can't hit a "defenseless" receiver anymore.

Secondly, you can't even give a quarterback a stern look anymore in the NFL without drawing a flag. The NFL had ONE 5,000 yard passer in it's history up until Drew Brees did it in 2008. This year I think you had 3 surpass the 5,000 yard mark, and would've been 4 had Aaron Rodgers played the last game of the season. Eli Manning only came 60+ yards from also hitting the 5,000 yard mark and making it 5 QB's.

The NFL doesn't want defense being played because it hurts the ratings, and in turn, hurts viewership. They want stats, stats, stats, and more stats so they can make more money off Fantasy Football, etc.

The NFL might as well be flag football to me. Did you happen to catch that hideous display of football they call the Pro-Bowl in Hawaii this year? Wait... I know... they can't risk getting a boo-boo... they make too much money.

The Pro-Bowl actually used to be a very, very competitive game with players giving max effort, because you didn't have as many prima donnas only playing because it's how they got rich. Otherwise, they'd be selling furniture.

It's just not my brand of football. They've even tried to eliminate kick returns by moving the kick-off up. Which is another reason why the QB's are shattering records left and right. Offenses are starting at the 20 more often.

I can understand that, especially the hitting on the receivers. As for the Pro-Bowl, that game has always been played with handcuffs. It's just gotten really obvious the past couple of years. In regards to kick-offs, well, isn't that what college is proposing as well?

But again... it goes back to the fact players are major investments for teams, like it or not. Another way to look at the rules in place right now are what a lot of ex-NFL players from the 60's, 70's, and 80's are going through, health wise.

colbysullivan · Feb 14, 2012

DiamondDust said:
Fair enough. Glad someone finally gave some specifics.

I won't disagree about the pass interference, but in terms of being down and getting up... the old NFL rule way back in the day allowed you to get up even if you got tackled. The whistle was what made the play dead.

As for overtime, I'm not a big fan of either as both have flaws (College game starts too close to scoring position, for example). I don't have a problem with the 2 minute warning and stoppage, though.

The rules are different because the games evolved at different rates.

I was always confused about PI being a spot foul. Still trying to figure that one out. I also thought it was funny the NFL decided to change the overtime rules just for the playoffs. Whether intentional or not, they basically confirmed the idea that the regular season is pretty much pointless.

CrimsonProf · Feb 14, 2012

colbysullivan said:
I was always confused about PI being a spot foul. Still trying to figure that one out. I also thought it was funny the NFL decided to change the overtime rules just for the playoffs. Whether intentional or not, they basically confirmed the idea that the regular season is pretty much pointless.

I must have missed that Colts/Bills playoff game.

DiamondDust · Feb 14, 2012

colbysullivan said:
I was always confused about PI being a spot foul. Still trying to figure that one out. I also thought it was funny the NFL decided to change the overtime rules just for the playoffs. Whether intentional or not, they basically confirmed the idea that the regular season is pretty much pointless.

It actually stemmed from the fact Bret Favre lost a playoff game with the Vikings without ever taking the field.

I just wish they would have made the change across the board, but I understand why they didn't. Sudden death can usually mean a quick ending.

JeffAtlanta · Feb 14, 2012

HartselleTider said:
I hate the overtime rules in college football. The offense is essentially given 3 points on the board automatically for all intents and purposes. All they have to do is not go backwards too far.

I've always hated the overtime rules in college football because it's like deciding a basketball game with a free throw contest.

CFB should switch over to the new NFL playoff rules or just play an additional quarter.

JeffAtlanta · Feb 14, 2012

colbysullivan said:
I was always confused about PI being a spot foul

Which part are you confused about? I think the NFL rule makes much more sense than college football.

colbysullivan · Feb 14, 2012

CrimsonProf said:
I must have missed that Colts/Bills playoff game.

That's why I said "pretty much pointless". Obviously the regular season is important, but again...the Giants were 7-7 at one point...seriously?

colbysullivan · Feb 14, 2012

JeffAtlanta said:
Which part are you confused about? I think the NFL rule makes much more sense than college football.

It makes no sense to assume the receiver would have made the catch. Great players drop passes all the time.

The perception of college football vs. the NFL

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