Santorum: Satan is working on the USA

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nx4bama

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"I can't explain it, ergo it must be irreducibly complex" this is not a logical argument. however, it is the premise behind intelligent design.
the point is not that it can't be explained... the point is that the probability of all of those things forming at the same time, or any time for that matter, by pure chance are ridiculous!
 

cbi1972

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"I can't explain it, ergo it must be irreducibly complex" this is not a logical argument. however, it is the premise behind intelligent design.
Creationist Claim Claim CB325
The claim assumes that "gradually" must mean "one at a time." Not so. The different features could have (and almost certainly would have) evolved both simultaneously and gradually. Partial valves would have been useful for reducing blood pressure to a degree. An intermediate heart would have produced enough pressure for a shorter neck. A smaller net of blood vessels in the head could have handled the lesser pressure. As longer necks were selected for, all of the other components would have been modified bit by bit as well. In other words, for each inch that the neck grew, the giraffe's physiology would have evolved to support such growth before the next inch of neck growth.
And despite Darwin adequately addressing this specific example over 140 years ago.

the point is not that it can't be explained... the point is that the probability of all of those things forming at the same time, or any time for that matter, by pure chance are ridiculous!
Chance is only HALF of what evolution is about. The other half, and this is key, is about selection for those randomly generated mutations that confer advantage.
 
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92tide

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just because you are able to explain how something MIGHT have happened, doesn't mean the probability that all those events would occur even given billions of years is feasible. if you believe that any probability, no matter how unlikely, is still possible, that exhibits an elementary knowledge of probability and statistics. there is a point that even science agrees is impossible. and the 15 step process for the beetle to have the capability of producing an explosion without blowing itself up is accepting that ALL OF THOSE 15 STEPS HAD TO HAPPEN IN THE EXACT ORDER PRESCRIBED..... figure the probabilities on that and get back to me. It is beyond astronomical.... ridiculous, even. It does not matter how many attempts you have, when probability reaches a certain point, it isn't gonna happen. The old adage that "given an infinite supply of monkeys and and infinite amount of time, you would produce the entire works of shakespeare" exhibits a complete lack of understanding of statistical probability. that is what you are asking me to believe about the bombardier beetle. yes, you may be able to write down a series of steps that would have led a regular old beetle to spit fire out its backside, but that does NOT mean it is plausible given the probabilities.
discussing probabilities is a red herring. here is some discussion on the matter link, link 2
 

nx4bama

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really, a front group promoting creationism under the guise of intelligent design?
i notice you haven't questioned the other links sited here in this thread.... i'm sure you're just being fair and balanced, right? the others support your belief, so they must be fair and accurate. i see how it is. ;)
 

92tide

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the point is not that it can't be explained... the point is that the probability of all of those things forming at the same time, or any time for that matter, by pure chance are ridiculous!
again, discussing probability is a red herring. rarity by itself is proof of nothing
 

92tide

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i notice you haven't questioned the other links sited here in this thread.... i'm sure you're just being fair and balanced, right? the others support your belief, so they must be fair and accurate. i see how it is. ;)
the discovery institute gets trotted out in every evolution thread on here. they have been completely discredited many times. there is no reason to delve back into it.
 

cbi1972

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no, i read that part. it doesn't change the probability.
Natural selection takes care of your perceived improbability by weeding out any specimens that had nonviable mutations. The ones that survive are naturally those that had viable mutations, and the ones that thrive are the ones with advantageous mutations.
 

92tide

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i'm afraid i can't read information from sites like that.... much like the discovery institute, i believe them to be evolutionist propaganda...... ;)
i have read the discovery institute website. i do not need to keep going back there to show myself that ID is a load of bunk.

the sites i have posted are merely providing you answers to your questions about probabilities.
 
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nx4bama

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again, discussing probability is a red herring. rarity by itself is proof of nothing
the ability to explain the steps taken to produce a fireball-farting beetle by natural selection does not, itself, prove anything either. I can make up a story about my truck originated out in the parking lot. It can be realistic, practical, and maybe even almost accurate. That does not prove that this is the way my truck arrived.
 

92tide

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the ability to explain the steps taken to produce a fireball-farting beetle by natural selection does not, itself, prove anything either. I can make up a story about my truck originated out in the parking lot. It can be realistic, practical, and maybe even almost accurate. That does not prove that this is the way my truck arrived.
you don't really understand how science works do you?
 

nx4bama

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Natural selection takes care of your perceived improbability by weeding out any specimens that had nonviable mutations. The ones that survive are naturally those that had viable mutations, and the ones that thrive are the ones with advantageous mutations.
nonviable mutations... you mean like the depressions that developed in the beetle that lead to the chambers that lead to the fire-farting..... nice... you used nonviable mutations awhile ago as evidence to promote the creation of a beetle and now evolution is weeding them out?
 

cbi1972

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the ability to explain the steps taken to produce a fireball-farting beetle by natural selection does not, itself, prove anything either. I can make up a story about my truck originated out in the parking lot. It can be realistic, practical, and maybe even almost accurate. That does not prove that this is the way my truck arrived.
Plausible explanations are not intended to be a demonstration of fact. They are only intended to discredit the idea that something is impossible, in this case the idea of irreducible complexity. If I saw your truck in the parking lot, a plausible explanation would be that someone drove it there, most likely on roads. Proponents of ID would be saying that it's impossible for trucks to teleport miles away instantaneously, and that it is somehow a failing of the "theory of driving" that we can't identify the driver.

nonviable mutations... you mean like the depressions that developed in the beetle that lead to the chambers that lead to the fire-farting..... nice... you used nonviable mutations awhile ago as evidence to promote the creation of a beetle and now evolution is weeding them out?
In the example, the depressions were for storing chemicals that were useful for things other than exploding.
 
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nx4bama

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So, I'm going to try to understand your perspective on the process of evolution. Then I have to go. Evolution can explain the existence of all the diversity that exists on this planet. We can list a series of steps that could possibly have led to the creation of that particular species' characteristics, and then even though there is no proof of this, we must accept it as fact. Then, when someone uses our own terminology to question why the beetle's depressions were not eliminated by the evolutionary process, we say, oh, it was okay to keep those because they were beneficial (even though we don't know why they were beneficial) and then later, we say OH, evolution takes care of the perceived problem with probability by weeding out the nonviable mutations. The depressions in the beetle are nonviable unless it is leading to chambers that will hold chemicals that can't mix. Are you going to tell me that evolution somehow "knew" these depressions would be viable down the line, so it hung onto the depressions? And then there were the chambers that would eventually hold the chemicals. Why do we need chambers if there are not dangerous chemicals. They are "nonviable" unless evolution "knew" that they would be needed later. Is anyone else having a problem with evolution "knowing" something besides me?

As I said, I've gotta go. I'll check out your responses later.
 

nx4bama

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Plausible explanations are not intended to be a demonstration of fact. They are only intended to discredit the idea that something is impossible, namely the idea of irreducible complexity. If I saw your truck in the parking lot, a plausible explanation would be that someone drove it there, most likely on roads. Proponents of ID would be saying that it's impossible for trucks to teleport miles away instantaneously, and that it is somehow a failing of the "theory of driving" that we can't identify the driver.
no, proponents of ID would say, OH! A truck. Someone must have designed it, built it, and then, possibly somebody else, drove it here. Evolutionists would have us believe that it found itself there by natural processes
 
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