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  1. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrayTide View Post
    I can see a +1 system without the conference champion requirement. It will include the 4 highest rated teams in the final BCS poll with the caveat that the +1 selection will limit the participation to no more than 1 team per conference. If 2 teams from the same conference are among the 4 highest rated teams according to the BCS final poll then then highest rated is in the +1 and the #5 teams gets the invite provided it is in a different conference than the other 3 teams. That will punish every conference but it has served its purpose of keeping 2 SEC teams out.
    I hope not. It should be top 4 regardless of which conference.
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  3. #54
    BamaNation Hall of Fame selmaborntidefan's Avatar
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    Re: Changing the bowl system because of Alabama

    Some of the discussion here is enlightening. (On a side note for one of the few times in history KrAzy and I agree on something - this #7 nonsense will make us long for the days of the BCS).

    However, some of our beloved fans need to lighten up.

    This is NOT happening because "we have to keep Alabama from winning," which is what is implied. There have been discussions of a CFB playoff since at least 1977, when Holtz proposed one including the bowls after he felt his one-loss Arkansas team got messed over (along with Tide fans feeling we wuz robbed) by Notre Dame. Since my days as a CFB fan go back no further than that, I have no first-hand experience of how long "playoff" has been in the works. (And Paterno was probably complaining about it back in the early 1970s after Penn State went unbeaten three times and never even came close).

    We did just happen to win it this year, but this rising up is a response to perceived injustices in Stillwater. It's a perfect storm in the sense that in recent years we have had an impugned Utah team go unbeaten and drill a top five Alabama team, the OU-Texas argument in 2008 (that aroused Joe Barton), five unbeatens in 2009, and unbeaten TCU in 2010. In short, it's sort of like a cold that left untreated has turned into a life-threatening situation although this one is overstated.

    If THIS is their idea of Plus One then put me down for the BCS. The BCS is a disgusting joke where a team can lose to a 6-7 team on the road while ranked number two - and then still be number two in the computers (this btw blows all those "appeal to the one bad scenario" arguments we hear in favor of it). But it would still be tons better than having a two-loss - or God help us - a 6-7 Pac 12 champ (UCLA) in the Plus One solely due to their luck of conference.

    (Btw - this is not the first time UCLA has bizarrely benefited or potentially benefited from nonsense. In 1983, a 6-4-1 UCLA team led by Rick "Know When To Fold 'Em" Neuheisel lucked into the Rose Bowl by playing an insane OOC (11-1 Georgia, 11-1 Nebraska, and 11-1 BYU) but only lost once in the Pac Ten and then trounced a one-loss Illinois in the Rose Bowl).

    Top Four teams regardless. Period. START the bowl season with the semi-finals so we don't have this "sit around for 51 days" nonsense. This is NOT that hard to solve.


    That said - this is NOT a "stop Alabama" thing. It is - to a degree - a "stop the SEC" thing. Alabama was not on anybody's radar until four years ago. This is MOSTLY Big XII driven.
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  4. #55
    BamaNation Hall of Fame GrayTide's Avatar
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    Re: Changing the bowl system because of Alabama

    Very good points, Bill and if it is to be a +1 scenario then it should include only the top 4 teams from the final BCS poll without regard to conference championships or conference affilitation. I also feel that strength of schedule and strength of the overall conference a team plays in should factor heavily into the final computer rankings once the season has ended. It does matter who you played and who you lost to, if we were to lose to UK or Vandy then that is our problem. I also do not think the timing of the loss should be a factor, like it is better to lose early than late in the season.

    If you want to be included in the final 4 teams then you have to win, unlike the NFL, in college football every game counts as it should and that's one of the things that makes the college game superior to the NFL.
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  5. #56
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    Re: Changing the bowl system because of Alabama

    Quote Originally Posted by selmaborntidefan View Post
    Some of the discussion here is enlightening. (On a side note for one of the few times in history KrAzy and I agree on something - this #7 nonsense will make us long for the days of the BCS).

    However, some of our beloved fans need to lighten up.

    This is NOT happening because "we have to keep Alabama from winning," which is what is implied. There have been discussions of a CFB playoff since at least 1977, when Holtz proposed one including the bowls after he felt his one-loss Arkansas team got messed over (along with Tide fans feeling we wuz robbed) by Notre Dame. Since my days as a CFB fan go back no further than that, I have no first-hand experience of how long "playoff" has been in the works. (And Paterno was probably complaining about it back in the early 1970s after Penn State went unbeaten three times and never even came close).

    We did just happen to win it this year, but this rising up is a response to perceived injustices in Stillwater. It's a perfect storm in the sense that in recent years we have had an impugned Utah team go unbeaten and drill a top five Alabama team, the OU-Texas argument in 2008 (that aroused Joe Barton), five unbeatens in 2009, and unbeaten TCU in 2010. In short, it's sort of like a cold that left untreated has turned into a life-threatening situation although this one is overstated.

    If THIS is their idea of Plus One then put me down for the BCS. The BCS is a disgusting joke where a team can lose to a 6-7 team on the road while ranked number two - and then still be number two in the computers (this btw blows all those "appeal to the one bad scenario" arguments we hear in favor of it). But it would still be tons better than having a two-loss - or God help us - a 6-7 Pac 12 champ (UCLA) in the Plus One solely due to their luck of conference.

    (Btw - this is not the first time UCLA has bizarrely benefited or potentially benefited from nonsense. In 1983, a 6-4-1 UCLA team led by Rick "Know When To Fold 'Em" Neuheisel lucked into the Rose Bowl by playing an insane OOC (11-1 Georgia, 11-1 Nebraska, and 11-1 BYU) but only lost once in the Pac Ten and then trounced a one-loss Illinois in the Rose Bowl).

    Top Four teams regardless. Period. START the bowl season with the semi-finals so we don't have this "sit around for 51 days" nonsense. This is NOT that hard to solve.


    That said - this is NOT a "stop Alabama" thing. It is - to a degree - a "stop the SEC" thing. Alabama was not on anybody's radar until four years ago. This is MOSTLY Big XII driven.
    While I agree with most of your points, the fact that it was the SEC and Alabama that benefited from the current system is part of what has everybody on board for the +1 all of a sudden. Remember, Slive introduce this 4-5 years ago and the only other commissioner that was in favor of it was the ACC. The Big 12 was adamantly against it. At the time, the PTB in the Big 12 could not foresee the almost demise of their conference and then a year later Ok State being the bell cow of the conference. They believed that either Texas or Oklahoma would be the conference champ most years.

    If this past season had played out basically the same way with Texas and Oklahoma as #1 and #2 and say Miss St at #3 having only one loss to Vandy (of course Bama, LSU, and Arky would have to have a down year), the outrage would have mostly come from SEC fans. Also, those that were so firmly against a rematch of LSU-Alabama (because Alabama already had their shot at the #1 team) would not have batted an eye if the rematch had been between LSU and a one-loss Oregon team that had already had their shot at the #1 team. Many of the sports media were actively promoting this match-up until 11/19.

    I think there has been enough commentary from other schools, conferences, boosters and national sports media to support the notion that the success of the SEC (and Alabama) and the fact that it doesn't look like its going to stop anytime soon have galvanized the college football world to ensure that this does not happen again.
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  6. #57
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    Re: Changing the bowl system because of Alabama

    Ironic that the best comments against a playoff here were aimed at me because there is no one on this board more opposed than I am to a playoff. The comment of mine that was being replied to was made in the belief that this thing is going to be rammed down our throat.

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    Re: Changing the bowl system because of Alabama

    Quote Originally Posted by ALA2262 View Post
    Ironic that the best comments against a playoff here were aimed at me because there is no one on this board more opposed than I am to a playoff. The comment of mine that was being replied to was made in the belief that this thing is going to be rammed down our throat.
    I hope you didn't take it personally. I spend most of my energy on the topic rather than properly interpreting individual opinions. I usually just take a tidbit and run with it, so I hope no one here takes it too personally. I tried to specify I was directing my thoughts at the statement and not you personally, and I guess you took it in stride since you didn't call me any names.

    Now, off I go...

    Personally, I do think we are seeing some bias against Alabama and the SEC. Is it all aimed specifically at Alabama and the SEC? Of course not, but it is there. There's no getting around the fact that the NCAA didn't like Bear Bryant (the feeling was mutual) and doesn't like Alabama. They've never missed a chance to hammer Alabama. There's no getting around the fact that every time Alabama excels, there seems to be forces out there trying to make it more difficult. Alabama isn't a very big state, it isn't a very popular state, and it isn't the base for any major media outlets. There have rarely been national advocates for Alabama. The same can be said for the SEC to a lesser extent. The SEC is the blue collar worker of the college football world. They got what they have through a work ethic, and they excel. A lot of people don't like these "lesser" institutions showing them up. Alabama and the SEC stand for excellence, in the traditional American spirit. Dirty, sweaty, and perhaps a little crass but excellent none the less. This has to drive a lot of members of the media and the stodgy university types crazy. They want inclusion, they want their own form of elitism, and it simply doesn't mesh with SEC dominance. If they could, I'm sure they would pass the championship trophy around amongst themselves, Notre Dame one year, then Ohio St., then USC... and we're ruining that.

    We can't discount ESPN's role. ESPN has been the main entity reporting lower bowl ratings, yet they were the reason for lower bowl ratings. Simply moving from broadcast to cable should produce at least a 20% drop in ratings, which is in keeping with what we're seeing. Of course attendance drops as well when ESPN has the bowls spread out and played at odd times on odd days. I can't say if ESPN is intentionally killing off the bowls, or if they're just trying to drain them for every last penny. It's certainly not in their interest to have the games seen by the most possible people (or else they would be on ABC) and it's certainly no concern of theirs that people actually show up to the stadiums. What I do find highly questionable is that the same entity that is constantly telling us ratings are lower and we need a change, can't see fit to ask their bosses why the choice was made to move away from broadcast or even ask their reaction to the ratings. It seems like poor reporting in the least and perhaps more sinister than that.

    Shortly before the Big 10 suggestion for a plus one came out, I was close to posting my own proposal. I'm not sure if it was a moment of weakness. I suppose part of it was: here's what I could stomach. Mine was close to what the Big 10 said (and I probably tossed it into a thread about that proposal). 1 should get a bye, 2 a home game against 3. This way, everyone gets due respect for their position. 1 is rewarded, 2 plays at home and 3 should be happy to be there.

    I have to back off of even that. If we're being pushed in a direction we have to ask why. If we're being mislead, we have to question why they feel the need to mislead us. The more I look the more I see the AP's agenda in this. The more I see ESPN's agenda. I know the NCAA's agenda, I know the lesser conference's agenda. I'm not completely sure about Slive, considering the scholarship things I am not sure I can trust him. There is no avoiding the fact that we're being pushed in a direction that started a long time ago. The championship matchup between Alabama and Miami was a good thing. The BCS title game has been a good thing. However, bit by bit we're losing something and I'd hope more and more of us start to realize we want to get off this ride. A plus one will just be the next stop, it won't be the end, even the plus one will probably have something slipped in to undermine the process. Perhaps it will allow the top two teams like the BCS does, but if it's a non-conference champ they won't be allowed in if they are 3 or 4. It won't end there though, and let's be clear, a plus one will put the bowl games on life support.

    The title came should be renamed, retain the same basic criteria for selection, and the rest of the bowl games should operate separately. No more BCS, just an agreement to release the top 2 teams to play in the game. It should probably be opened up to bidding, so any (off campus) site can host it. I have other ideas for how to make college football better, but for this issue in isolation that's how I believe it should be handled. Clean the slate, give us 1 vs 2 and let stop telling the bowl games who they can and can't have.

  8. #59
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Crimson1967's Avatar
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    Re: Changing the bowl system because of Alabama

    Another thing to consider with a plus one is the bowls. If the semifinals are held on campus sites, that would mean four more teams that would go to bowl games, assuming the semifinal losers don't go to bowls afterwards.

    Would there be enough six win teams to go to bowl games? Bowl games are a big enough of a joke without having teams with a losing record going.

  9. #60
    BamaNation Hall of Fame GrayTide's Avatar
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    Re: Changing the bowl system because of Alabama

    35 bowl games, really?
    "My momma always said you got to put the past behind you before you can move on." Forrest Gump

    "The past is never dead. It's not even past." William Faulkner

  10. #61
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    Re: Changing the bowl system because of Alabama

    The South is not really that far removed from the Civil War, slavery and the Civil Rights era's to not still feel the prejudices of the North, Big 10/11/12 influences. Now that the SEC is dominating, the jealousy is becoming more obvious. The 60,70,80,90 year old men in charge today who were influenced by their 60,70,80,90 year old fathers who were influenced by their 60,70,80,90 year old fathers who lived during the Civil War and slavery, still have biases against the South even if they deny it. They think they are better than us as a people plain and simple.

    If Alabama and the SEC is down they have no beef with the rules. Just go back to when the Rose bowl made their rules to keep Southern teams out. Its our history haunting us again. http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/jarvis16.html

  11. #62
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    Re: Changing the bowl system because of Alabama

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayTide View Post
    IMO, like Cajun said above a +1 does not hurt the SEC, but limiting the +1 format to conference champions is an obvious attempt to limit the SEC to only one team. And I do agree that a proposed change is aimed at preventing what happened this year from happening again.
    I'm going to laugh if they make a rule that allows only conference champions to play in the title game and that rule ends up costing Notre Dame an opportunity to compete for a national championship. Of course, that scenario could only unfold if Notre Dame ever again fields a team worthy of NC consideration, but I digress.

  12. #63
    BamaNation Hall of Fame selmaborntidefan's Avatar
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    Re: Changing the bowl system because of Alabama

    Hi Pride, thanks for replying.


    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonPride View Post
    While I agree with most of your points, the fact that it was the SEC and Alabama that benefited from the current system is part of what has everybody on board for the +1 all of a sudden.
    But here - to me - has to be the absolutely FUNNIEST part - when the SEC invoked the conference title game in 1992, there were warnings all over the place. "Don't do it - it will make an already extremely difficult task impossible." Keep in mind that Alabama was tied with a four-loss Florida team with a little over 3 minutes to go in that game. The other conferences were kinda laughing because it was going to put us in a fix. Now we all know, of course, that the difference from first to last in the SEC divisions is really NOT that far.

    Here's some proof:

    1995 - Arkansas won West, last in 1996
    1996 - Alabama won West, last in 1997
    1997 - Auburn won West, last in 1998
    1999 - Alabama won West, last in 2000

    While the argument can be made, "Well, those teams lost a bunch of seniors," that should not turn you from a 9-win team into a 3-win team.

    So the conference title was going to hurt us. But then something happened - in the first 20 years of its existence there has only been ONE REAL UPSET in the SEC title game, LSU over Tennessee in 2001. The cream has risen to the top.




    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonPride View Post
    Remember, Slive introduce this 4-5 years ago and the only other commissioner that was in favor of it was the ACC. The Big 12 was adamantly against it. At the time, the PTB in the Big 12 could not foresee the almost demise of their conference and then a year later Ok State being the bell cow of the conference. They believed that either Texas or Oklahoma would be the conference champ most years.
    All that is true. The Big XII would STILL be against it had nobody come close for them last year - because neither Texas nor OU wants to risk that extra game (insert 2001 Colorado upset over UT here). But they're on board now. To say it's a Bama thing is kinda crazy (not that you were).

    Now - is there some "stop the SEC" to it? Sure.

    You know what's funny? There's an EASIER way to do it. Simply schedule home and home games with the SEC and then BEAT THEM!!! I mean, you have to beat them anyway, so why not schedule them and take them out of the running by hoping you get them on an off day?

    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonPride View Post
    If this past season had played out basically the same way with Texas and Oklahoma as #1 and #2 and say Miss St at #3 having only one loss to Vandy (of course Bama, LSU, and Arky would have to have a down year), the outrage would have mostly come from SEC fans. Also, those that were so firmly against a rematch of LSU-Alabama (because Alabama already had their shot at the #1 team) would not have batted an eye if the rematch had been between LSU and a one-loss Oregon team that had already had their shot at the #1 team. Many of the sports media were actively promoting this match-up until 11/19.
    Yeah, and you know the funny thing about that? They were touting that and then the moment Oregon lost they shifted gears and said, "no rematches." After talking non-stop about it for two weeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonPride View Post
    I think there has been enough commentary from other schools, conferences, boosters and national sports media to support the notion that the success of the SEC (and Alabama) and the fact that it doesn't look like its going to stop anytime soon have galvanized the college football world to ensure that this does not happen again.
    I agree they're trying to stop the SEC, but let's not turn it into an anti-Bama thing.
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  13. #64
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    Re: Changing the bowl system because of Alabama

    Quote Originally Posted by selmaborntidefan View Post
    That said - this is NOT a "stop Alabama" thing. It is - to a degree - a "stop the SEC" thing. Alabama was not on anybody's radar until four years ago. This is MOSTLY Big XII driven.
    I do believe strongly that the current wave of support for a Plus One playoff system is an anti-Alabama/anti-Nick Saban thing. Certainly the debate is not new, but the fact that conference commissioners who have historically been opposed to any kind of playoff for college football have come out in favor of a post-BCS bowl season championship game indicates to me that that the national conversation has reached a tipping point. Would that tipping point have arrived without Alabama being the team that "double dipped" against LSU and won the NC? My answer is no. Consider the scenario described by CrimsonPride in post # 48. Alabama beats LSU in the regular season; Alabama goes to the SEC CG, and wins; LSU wins the remainder of their regular season games and is voted under the BCS formula as Alabama's opponent in the BSC NC game. Then LSU beats Alabama for the national title. Does anyone really think that, in that case, the same hue and cry would have gone up to make 2012 "the year" for a Plus One game? Not a chance. Gary Danielson, Brent Musburger, and the ESPN talking heads would have considered themselves vindicated in all their "Honey Badger" adulation and, while there would have been the usual grumbling about SEC dominance, the BCS system would continued as before.

  14. #65
    BamaNation All-American ALA2262's Avatar
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    Re: Changing the bowl system because of Alabama

    Quote Originally Posted by Quicksilver View Post
    I do believe strongly that the current wave of support for a Plus One playoff system is an anti-Alabama/anti-Nick Saban thing. Certainly the debate is not new, but the fact that conference commissioners who have historically been opposed to any kind of playoff for college football have come out in favor of a post-BCS bowl season championship game indicates to me that that the national conversation has reached a tipping point. Would that tipping point have arrived without Alabama being the team that "double dipped" against LSU and won the NC? My answer is no. Consider the scenario described by CrimsonPride in post # 48. Alabama beats LSU in the regular season; Alabama goes to the SEC CG, and wins; LSU wins the remainder of their regular season games and is voted under the BCS formula as Alabama's opponent in the BSC NC game. Then LSU beats Alabama for the national title. Does anyone really think that, in that case, the same hue and cry would have gone up to make 2012 "the year" for a Plus One game? Not a chance. Gary Danielson, Brent Musburger, and the ESPN talking heads would have considered themselves vindicated in all their "Honey Badger" adulation and, while there would have been the usual grumbling about SEC dominance, the BCS system would continued as before.
    You are exactly correct IMO and to further emphasize your point let's don't forget about the rematch talk. All of that started out positive BEFORE the 11/5 game because they all thought LSU was going to lose. It immediately turned negative as soon as LSU kicked the FG to win in OT.

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