The Trayvon Martin Case

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bamacon

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Probably because they didn't have any that were newer. They went with what they had access to.
BULL. They have an agenda. The pic is part of the propaganda against guns, egging on racial strife etc. same reason they called Zimmerman a white Hispanic. Try, just try, to be intellectually honest.

They had accurate FB pics within minutes they just didn't think an angry black face with a gold grill would engender as much sympathy as the 10 year old riding the horse at the youth ranch.
 

bamacon

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Actually if they went by FL law this case would have been dismissed like it should have been. This special prosecutor and the judge who allowed a 2nd degree murder charge should be removed from their posts. If they are now having second thoughts about the SYG (stand your ground) law they should do it through legislation.
 

Bamaro

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Actually if they went by FL law this case would have been dismissed like it should have been. This special prosecutor and the judge who allowed a 2nd degree murder charge should be removed from their posts. If they are now having second thoughts about the SYG (stand your ground) law they should do it through legislation.
Here's the way I see it. Would SYG apply here:conf2:
TM is walking home through the neighborhood that GZ is "watching".
GZ sees TM and decides that he looks/acts suspicious.
GZ calls a non emergency 911 type of number and explains what he is seeing.
GZ at some point gets out of his vehicle and approaches TM
TM takes offense to being stopped/approached while simply walking home
Based on this approach, maybe some heated words/comments etc and for whatever other mitigating actions (if any) TM punches GZ,
A short scuffle ensues and GM, on the losing end of the scuffle pulls his gun, fires one shot and shoots/kills TM
 

BAMAFAN IN NY

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I imagine the lawyers on this case take a third. I imagine the lawyers for any future civil case against whatshisface will cost a pretty penny (let's face it, they're not going to get a dime out of him). How much does Uncle Sam take in judgments like this? Anyone know? I would guess nearly half.
Im pretty sure settlement money is tax exempt. Especially in personal injury. Things like wrongful termination are taxable though.. i think. And if any part of the settlement is punitive damages.. that part is taxable.
 
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G-VilleTider

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Here's the way I see it. Would SYG apply here:conf2:
TM is walking home through the neighborhood that GZ is "watching".
GZ sees TM and decides that he looks/acts suspicious.
GZ calls a non emergency 911 type of number and explains what he is seeing.
GZ at some point gets out of his vehicle and approaches TM
TM takes offense to being stopped/approached while simply walking home
Based on this approach, maybe some heated words/comments etc and for whatever other mitigating actions (if any) TM punches GZ,
A short scuffle ensues and GM, on the losing end of the scuffle pulls his gun, fires one shot and shoots/kills TM
You answered your own question. Asking someone a question, or hell, even cursing at them doesn't give that person the legal OR moral right to physically attack that person. On the other hand, physically assaulting someone most definitely gives the defender a moral right and in SYG, the legal right as well to defend themselves. A tragic end to TM's life and I am sure it is awful for his family, but there is no reason to punish GZ other than to try and pacify certain groups.
 

DzynKingRTR

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BULL. They have an agenda. The pic is part of the propaganda against guns, egging on racial strife etc. same reason they called Zimmerman a white Hispanic. Try, just try, to be intellectually honest.

They had accurate FB pics within minutes they just didn't think an angry black face with a gold grill would engender as much sympathy as the 10 year old riding the horse at the youth ranch.
and it is working perfectly.
 

Bamaro

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You answered your own question. Asking someone a question, or hell, even cursing at them doesn't give that person the legal OR moral right to physically attack that person. On the other hand, physically assaulting someone most definitely gives the defender a moral right and in SYG, the legal right as well to defend themselves. A tragic end to TM's life and I am sure it is awful for his family, but there is no reason to punish GZ other than to try and pacify certain groups.
Thats why I included
and for whatever other mitigating actions (if any)
.
 

cbi1972

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The person who initiated the violence should be on the losing end of this trial.
Reasonable doubt is the standard of evidence in criminal proceedings, but the partiality of the jury, or lack thereof, will probably be the deciding factor.
 

chanson78

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You answered your own question. Asking someone a question, or hell, even cursing at them doesn't give that person the legal OR moral right to physically attack that person. On the other hand, physically assaulting someone most definitely gives the defender a moral right and in SYG, the legal right as well to defend themselves. A tragic end to TM's life and I am sure it is awful for his family, but there is no reason to punish GZ other than to try and pacify certain groups.
That is the biggest load of bull I have ever heard.

GZ effectively stalked the young man against the advisement of the cops. If I was walking through a neighborhood I had every right to be in and some dude in a car is following me for several blocks, then gets out and starts approaching me. You can darn well bet I will start beating the tar out of that dude. Where is the consideration that if TM had a gun he could have invoked SYG? He was doing nothing illegal at the time, he had been followed by someone who didn't identify himself, by someone who had been told by police to leave him be (yes TM didn't know this) and he was in a dark neighborhood being approached by someone who had gotten out of an unmarked car.

So given all these things you honestly try and say that had the situation been different, and you were in a dark neighborhood, pursued by a guy in an unmarked car, who approached you as you walked between some buildings in an apartment complex that you wouldn't at least either try to get the heck out of dodge or beat the heck out of whoever was threatening you?

Edit:
Come to think of it that is the epitome of the definition of SYG. Had TM had a gun and told GZ to stay in place after GZ getting out of his truck to approach him or else he would shoot, he would have just as much right to everyone defending his SYG stance as GZ is getting now.
 
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cbi1972

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That is the biggest load of bull I have ever heard.

GZ effectively stalked the young man against the advisement of the cops. If I was walking through a neighborhood I had every right to be in and some dude in a car is following me for several blocks, then gets out and starts approaching me. You can darn well bet I will start beating the tar out of that dude. Where is the consideration that if TM had a gun he could have invoked SYG? He was doing nothing illegal at the time, he had been followed by someone who didn't identify himself, by someone who had been told by police to leave him be (yes TM didn't know this) and he was in a dark neighborhood being approached by someone who had gotten out of an unmarked car.

So given all these things you honestly try and say that had the situation been different, and you were in a dark neighborhood, pursued by a guy in an unmarked car, who approached you as you walked between some buildings in an apartment complex that you wouldn't at least either try to get the heck out of dodge or beat the heck out of whoever was threatening you?

Edit:
Come to think of it that is the epitome of the definition of SYG. Had TM had a gun and told GZ to stay in place after GZ getting out of his truck to approach him or else he would shoot, he would have just as much right to everyone defending his SYG stance as GZ is getting now.
And this is where your life is forfeit if you initiate aggression against someone capable of ending you.
 

chanson78

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And this is where your life is forfeit if you initiate aggression against someone capable of ending you.
So you are saying that its ok for a non uniformed person in no real position of authority to stalk someone for several blocks and the person being followed/stalked/harassed has no recourse other than run or do what the person says?

That is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. I guess as long as you carry a gun every where you go that makes this whole SYG thing just perfect.
 

mikes12

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That is the biggest load of bull I have ever heard.

GZ effectively stalked the young man against the advisement of the cops. If I was walking through a neighborhood I had every right to be in and some dude in a car is following me for several blocks, then gets out and starts approaching me. You can darn well bet I will start beating the tar out of that dude. Where is the consideration that if TM had a gun he could have invoked SYG? He was doing nothing illegal at the time, he had been followed by someone who didn't identify himself, by someone who had been told by police to leave him be(yes TM didn't know this) and he was in a dark neighborhood being approached by someone who had gotten out of an unmarked car.

So given all these things you honestly try and say that had the situation been different, and you were in a dark neighborhood, pursued by a guy in an unmarked car, who approached you as you walked between some buildings in an apartment complex that you wouldn't at least either try to get the heck out of dodge or beat the heck out of whoever was threatening you?

Edit:
Come to think of it that is the epitome of the definition of SYG. Had TM had a gun and told GZ to stay in place after GZ getting out of his truck to approach him or else he would shoot, he would have just as much right to everyone defending his SYG stance as GZ is getting now.
I believe the actual quote was "we don't need you to do that." That is a far cry from "leave him be". In fact, it seems like the dispatcher was leaving that decision up to GZ, not telling him to desist.
 

crimsonaudio

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If I was walking through a neighborhood I had every right to be in and some dude in a car is following me for several blocks, then gets out and starts approaching me. You can darn well bet I will start beating the tar out of that dude.
And you'd be charged with a crime.

Come to think of it that is the epitome of the definition of SYG. Had TM had a gun and told GZ to stay in place after GZ getting out of his truck to approach him or else he would shoot, he would have just as much right to everyone defending his SYG stance as GZ is getting now.
No, SYG only means you can meet force with force. I'm unaware of ANY self defense laws in any state that allow anyone to employ deadly force (or even threaten it) unless they are in imminent fear of great bodily harm or death. Some dude following you, even hurling insults at you, wouldn't constitute that threat in any state that I'm familiar with.

Keep in mind I'm on the fence on this one. I initially though Zimmerman guilty but as more evidence has come out, I'm not sure. I do find the media bias pretty sad and realize that all info I've received has been via that very media, so I'm waiting until I see more evidence before I make up my own mind about this case. But we have to keep in mind that one is not allowed to employ deadly force until certain circumstances are met, and nothing we've seen in evidence so far indicates that Zimmerman crossed that line.
 

chanson78

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And you'd be charged with a crime.
For defending myself from someone who had been following me, and accosted me in a dark area between two buildings without identifying himself? Sure arrest me but any lawyer worth his salt would get that thrown out.

No, SYG only means you can meet force with force. I'm unaware of ANY self defense laws in any state that allow anyone to employ deadly force (or even threaten it) unless they are in imminent fear of great bodily harm or death. Some dude following you, even hurling insults at you, wouldn't constitute that threat in any state that I'm familiar with.

Keep in mind I'm on the fence on this one. I initially though Zimmerman guilty but as more evidence has come out, I'm not sure. I do find the media bias pretty sad and realize that all info I've received has been via that very media, so I'm waiting until I see more evidence before I make up my own mind about this case. But we have to keep in mind that one is not allowed to employ deadly force until certain circumstances are met, and nothing we've seen in evidence so far indicates that Zimmerman crossed that line.
And I will say that if someone follows me for multiple blocks and starts to come at me in a dark neighborhood I will tell everyone that I came across I felt my life was in imminent danger. There have been cases where people were shot under SYG without any physical altercation having taken place merely due to perceived threat. That is what makes these rules so bad.
 
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TheAccountant

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So you are saying that its ok for a non uniformed person in no real position of authority to stalk someone for several blocks and the person being followed/stalked/harassed has no recourse other than run or do what the person says?

That is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. I guess as long as you carry a gun every where you go that makes this whole SYG thing just perfect.
It's not illegal to follow someone in public and make them feel uncomfortable.
 

crimsonaudio

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So you are saying that its ok for a non uniformed person in no real position of authority to stalk someone for several blocks and the person being followed/stalked/harassed has no recourse other than run or do what the person says?
No, the person being 'stalked' would need to contact authorities or leave the area - you have zero right to attack someone physically because they are following you are saying things to you. That's the law.
 

crimsonaudio

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For defending myself from someone who had been following me, and accosted me in a dark area between two buildings without identifying himself? Sure arrest me but any lawyer worth his salt would get that thrown out.
Good luck with that - I've never seen that work without a physical attack from the 'follower'.

And I will say that if someone follows me for multiple blocks and starts to come at me in a dark neighborhood I will tell everyone that I came across I felt my life was in imminent danger. There have been cases where people were shot under SYG without any physical altercation having taken place merely due to perceived threat. That is what makes these rules so bad.
The only situations I'm aware of where someone utilized deadly force when another weapon was not present and was not charged is in cases where someone has a physical reason to be fearful of a physical confrontation - someone outnumbered, someone much smaller / weaker than the other, or someone with a disability.

You can say "I shot him because I was in fear of losing my life" but the law is fairly specific (in the states I'm familiar with) as to what is allowed.
 

cbi1972

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For defending myself from someone who had been following me, and accosted me in a dark area between two buildings without identifying himself? Sure arrest me but any lawyer worth his salt would get that thrown out.



And I will say that if someone follows me for multiple blocks and starts to come at me in a dark neighborhood I will tell everyone that I came across I felt my life was in imminent danger. There have been cases where people were shot under SYG without any physical altercation having taken place merely due to perceived threat. That is what makes these rules so bad.
Usually such cases involve home invasion, where threat is implied just by someone's unauthorized presence.
If you are attacked in public, you have the right to defend yourself.
If you are afraid in public, you do not have the right to attack the object of your fear.
 

chanson78

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Thanks to you jerks I am not going out anywhere anymore.

Thanks for the education. I can now take "internet tough talker" off my resume.

I am incredulous that if someone is harassing someone and causing genuine fear that you just have to put up with it.
 
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