The Trayvon Martin Case

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TIDE-HSV

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Since you are an attorney, I have a question.

Trayvon Martin's parents have been in the courtroom during all testimony, I think. Zimmerman's parents were asked to leave prior to the beginning of the trial because they were going to testify at the trial. It looks like, at least I've heard on TV, the prosecution will be calling Trayvon's mother to the stand.

Question: How can one side, parents of defendant, be asked to leave since they are going to testify, but the other side, prosecution, can call one of the parents as a witness when they've been sitting in court, each day, I think? I don't have a side in this court case, I was just wondering if this is justice: I don't see a balanced scale in front of me. I do think that Zimmerman would not be in trouble if he had complied with a request made when he called 911. Something to the effect: don't pursue the person in question. He should have let legal authorities handle the situation.
That is called "The Rule." Any prospective witness cannot be present at trial until called, unless the other side agrees to waive it. There is an exception for a party to the suit in civil cases. The judge can also make exceptions, although I wouldn't expect it in a homicide case. So, did Martin's mother testify?
 

Al A Bama

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That is called "The Rule." Any prospective witness cannot be present at trial until called, unless the other side agrees to waive it. There is an exception for a party to the suit in civil cases. The judge can also make exceptions, although I wouldn't expect it in a homicide case. So, did Martin's mother testify?
Not yet, but I heard commentators say that she would be testifying. Maybe they were inaccurate.
 

TIDE-HSV

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Not yet, but I heard commentators say that she would be testifying. Maybe they were inaccurate.
I'll try to track it and see. Normally, the prosecution would have waived the right to have her testify by having her present. May be some weird Florida exception for a parent or something...
 

RTR91

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I know former Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Perry Hooper was asked to leave the bingo trial because he was a potential witness.
 

Bamaro

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Being an attorney, it's my wont to examine each side of a case. On balance, I think he should be acquitted. However, I see an argument - and the prosecution will make it in final arguments - that he abandoned "SYG" when he went after Martin. The history of the law in this area is that, before 2006 in Alabama, you were required to retreat to the max reasonable degree possible before using deadly force. If you were in your home, you were presumed to have retreated as far as you could and you were permitted to use deadly force without further retreat. The intent of the SYG laws was to transport this doctrine to outside the home. If Zimmerman had been on the way home and were jumped by Martin - absolutely no problem - he can avail himself of STG. He blurred that line by tracking Martin - not the most comfortable case for a prosecutor. If he's convicted, I think it will be on this basis and I will be very interested in the judge's jury instructions. (Someone may have posted this above, but I'm not reading 60+ pages to find out...)

Edit: By saying before 2006 in Alabama, that was just an example. That was really the common law everywhere, going back centuries...
I didn't think that SYG was even being claimed here as a defense.
 

gmart74

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Just for kicks and giggles. What do you think the verdict will be? This is a message board. Stating your opinion won't get you killed.....yet. :biggrin2:
i hope they come back with an innocent verdict. i also hope there are riots and random acts of violence just like jamie foxx is pining for. it should make for some great reality tv.
 

TIDE-HSV

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I didn't think that SYG was even being claimed here as a defense.
SYG is not really a separate defense at all. It just changes the definition of self-defense and when it will apply. In your own home, you're entitled, and always have been, to SYG and it's automatically self-defense, unless you've behaved in such a way as to remove that as a defense. There are plenty of gray cases in that area also - the homeowner pursuing the intruder, etc. The SYG statutes are really an attempt to port the "household" defense to situations outside the home, where it gets to be devilish to determine when a person has retreated as far as he/she possibly can. It's an attempt to draw a line for certainty about self-defense. In the end, SYG attempts a modification of the defense of self-defense outside the home. I know I'm being repetitive, but apparently I'm not making myself clear. I wish some of our guys were participating who practice this kind of law on a regular basis. I'll see if I can wake up BamaBelle or Drewy...
 
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crimsonaudio

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SYG inside the home is also generally a grey area when the homeowner invites the person into the home.

In FL, I think this case still falls under SYG - unless the prosecution can prove that Zimmerman physically attacked TM, TM had no reason to physically attack Zimmerman, so Zimmerman naturally defended himself. Very simplified statement, I get it, but that's the gist of what I've seen so far from the trial...
 

TIDE-HSV

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SYG inside the home is also generally a grey area when the homeowner invites the person into the home.

In FL, I think this case still falls under SYG - unless the prosecution can prove that Zimmerman physically attacked TM, TM had no reason to physically attack Zimmerman, so Zimmerman naturally defended himself. Very simplified statement, I get it, but that's the gist of what I've seen so far from the trial...
I see more than that, although from what I've seen the prosecution hasn't exactly done a bangup job, they've tried to introduce and emphasize the fact that it was Zimmerman following Martin, not the other way around. As I said above, I think there's a valid argument to be made that Zimmerman had essentially abandoned his self-defense rights by trying to move the SYG bubble to wherever Martin was. It's an interesting case...
 

crimsonaudio

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As I said above, I think there's a valid argument to be made that Zimmerman had essentially abandoned his self-defense rights by trying to move the SYG bubble to wherever Martin was. It's an interesting case...
IANAL, so I defer to your judgment, but unless Zimmerman was breaking the law by his actions, I can't see how he gave up his right to SYG. That would essentially be saying tha a person not breaking the law was not protected by the law against an attacker - as much as I disagree with Zimmerman's 'zeal' wrt his 'neighborhood watch' duties, and believe that TM would be alive today if he had not pursued him, everything I've seen seems to point to TM attacking Zimmerman, in which case the SYG law (or virtually any other SD law) would come into effect.

But again, layman here, so be gentle...
 

selmaborntidefan

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I think the speculation of riots is hyperbole. Other than the case of Rodney King and the LAPD, when have we had riots after a verdict in the last 30 years?

Folks will get mad and blow up Twitter - but since Florida homeowners and businesses are more likely on average to have guns, that ain't gonna happen. Plus if you'll recall the LA riots, those geniuses were so mad at the rich white jury in Simi Valley that they killed a bunch of Koreans. The last case I can think of before King was the White Night Riots in San Fran that protested the Twinkie defense of Dan White - and that was a sociological case where a number of folks likely felt the killer got a light sentence because one victim was gay.

I seriously doubt anything is going to happen.
 

Bazza

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Earle,

It's called the Castle Doctrine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine

It states you are no longer required to retreat in your home before defending yourself against harm.

Then of course as you said....that evolved into "Stand Your Ground" for outside your home because it was so difficult to determine what is reasonable to expect to retreat from a harmful confrontation.

At the bottom of this page there is more detail on which states apply these laws.


=========

My personal take on this case is it may boil down to whether GZ was assaulted by TM while on his way back to his vehicle or somewhere else - but NOT WHILE following TM anymore. Because when the 911 operator said "We don't need you to do that" - his reply was OK.

I think it's entirely possible to speculate that TM may have initiated and/or escalated the confrontation to the point where physical contact was made and things went south very quickly.

So I wonder who it was that threw the first punch? And wouldn't that be the "clincher" as to whether or not GZ should be help liable?

As Audio mentions....following someone - even making them feel uncomfortable...is not against the law.

Once fists fly - the person who throws the first punch should be help accountable. Regardless of anything else.
 

Bamabuzzard

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Just food for thought to the case. The defense had one of the investigators on the stand and specifically asked him if "following" someone was a crime (regardless of the distance). He said "no". He then asked was it a crime to say something to someone, regardless of content. He said "no". The point of the questioning was to dismiss the opportunity for the prosecution of saying that by GZ following and saying something to TM that he gave up his rights to SYG.

Granted, I don't know how well that will ultimately work but I thought it was a smart move by the defense.



IANAL, so I defer to your judgment, but unless Zimmerman was breaking the law by his actions, I can't see how he gave up his right to SYG. That would essentially be saying tha a person not breaking the law was not protected by the law against an attacker - as much as I disagree with Zimmerman's 'zeal' wrt his 'neighborhood watch' duties, and believe that TM would be alive today if he had not pursued him, everything I've seen seems to point to TM attacking Zimmerman, in which case the SYG law (or virtually any other SD law) would come into effect.

But again, layman here, so be gentle...
 
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gmart74

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The thing about this case that really gets me, is that it could very easily have been me in that situation. (I just moved out of Baltimore but I'm writing this as if this was a month ago).

I live at the end of a long alley where 2 exits to the road T off to either side. One of my alley neighbors was robbed of her purse right out of her kitchen at ~7pm about a month ago by 2 young black teens (which is the description of 98% of all burglaries, muggings and assaults in our area). Since that time, all of installed motion lights and we have been more aware of foot traffic through the alley. Additionally I started an informal neighborhood watch and I repeatedly called the police dept and Baltimore City government to get assistance or advice. They didnt reply to a single phone call, email, voicemail. If you call police to investigate a suspicious person, the cops show up an hour later, if at all.

So the result of this situation is that my neighborhood is on heightened alert for young black teens, we have been victims of crime and we are of the mentality that we will help each other out, and we also know we are on our own bc the cops won't show up. I am also armed and would certainly have a gun with me if I thought a crime was being committed in that alley.

There is nothing Zimmerman did that I consider outrageous behavior. His neighborhood had been robbed multiple times recently, he was in charge of the neighborhood watch, and he sees a young black teen that he doesnt recognize randomly walking around. So he investigates... and that is what makes him some crazed wacko??

If society wants these situations to stop, then perhaps the police and judicial systems need to do a better job of incarcerating criminals and protecting law-abiding citizens rather than leaving them to do the job themselves and then vilifying them once the deed is done.
 

Bazza

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Gmart - everything you said is true. This case is only getting the publicity because of the media stirring the pot for ratings combined with the implied racist angle.

If you have been following the testimony - the detectives and investigators TO THEIR CREDIT did an OUTSTANDING and very thorough job in their investigation immediately after the event.

The charges against GZ should have never been brought in the first place, given all the circumstances.

Another dog and pony show - meanwhile innocent folks are getting robbed, assaulted, and murdered everyday - with so much as a mention from the media.

Don't get me started.....:mad:
 

bamacon

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IANAL, so I defer to your judgment, but unless Zimmerman was breaking the law by his actions, I can't see how he gave up his right to SYG. That would essentially be saying tha a person not breaking the law was not protected by the law against an attacker - as much as I disagree with Zimmerman's 'zeal' wrt his 'neighborhood watch' duties, and believe that TM would be alive today if he had not pursued him, everything I've seen seems to point to TM attacking Zimmerman, in which case the SYG law (or virtually any other SD law) would come into effect.

But again, layman here, so be gentle...
And TM would be alive if he had just Told GZ to back off and gone home. GZ also testified that he was headed back to his truck when he was attacked. He claimed "he had lost" TM. ALL of this is immaterial really. The only thing that matters is if they can prove the elements of 2nd degree murder which is a life sentence. ANY reasonable assessment would conclude they aren't even in that hemisphere much less area code.

Sorry for the previous post it was a tying oversight. Me knows the rules. :(
 

TIDE-HSV

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I'm familiar with the doctrine. I just hoped one of our criminal defense guys would have more input on how it's been applied in detail.

Earle,

It's called the Castle Doctrine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine

It states you are no longer required to retreat in your home before defending yourself against harm.

Then of course as you said....that evolved into "Stand Your Ground" for outside your home because it was so difficult to determine what is reasonable to expect to retreat from a harmful confrontation.

At the bottom of this page there is more detail on which states apply these laws.


=========

My personal take on this case is it may boil down to whether GZ was assaulted by TM while on his way back to his vehicle or somewhere else - but NOT WHILE following TM anymore. Because when the 911 operator said "We don't need you to do that" - his reply was OK.

I think it's entirely possible to speculate that TM may have initiated and/or escalated the confrontation to the point where physical contact was made and things went south very quickly.

So I wonder who it was that threw the first punch? And wouldn't that be the "clincher" as to whether or not GZ should be help liable?

As Audio mentions....following someone - even making them feel uncomfortable...is not against the law.

Once fists fly - the person who throws the first punch should be help accountable. Regardless of anything else.
 

Tide1986

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If you have been following the testimony - the detectives and investigators TO THEIR CREDIT did an OUTSTANDING and very thorough job in their investigation immediately after the event.

The charges against GZ should have never been brought in the first place, given all the circumstances.
Yet the Sanford police chief was fired. Go figure.
 
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