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  1. #157
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    Re: Conservatives trust in science has declined sharply

    Quote Originally Posted by uafan4life View Post
    No it doesn't. ...
    Very well said. I believe the problem usually happens when a possible conclusion to a hypothesis is stated as fact when the hypothesis has not been fully proven. People in all four of your categories tend to do this when they have made their conclusion. The dogmatic ones just tend to do it earlier.

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  3. #158
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    Re: Conservatives trust in science has declined sharply

    Quote Originally Posted by uafan4life View Post
    No it doesn't. There is absolutely no difference between the two. An assumption doesn't increase knowledge, it replaces knowledge. An increase in knowledge can replace the assumption(s) over time, but the assumptions themselves do nothing except replace ignorance with a person's favorite [and most likely unfounded or at least unproven] belief regarding whatever unexplained question(s) those assumptions are about.
    If you think science and faith are equivalent with respect to knowledge improvement and revising belief to fit empiric observation, you're sorely mistaken. Boiling down scientific knowledge to a series of assumptions is disingenuous.
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  4. #159
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    Re: Conservatives trust in science has declined sharply

    Quote Originally Posted by cbi1972 View Post
    If you think science and faith are equivalent with respect to knowledge improvement and revising belief to fit empiric observation, you're sorely mistaken. Boiling down scientific knowledge to a series of assumptions is disingenuous.
    I don't think his statement was in reference to science, itself, but rather to those portions of science that are still unproven (even if they are potentially accurate)

  5. #160
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    Re: Conservatives trust in science has declined sharply

    Quote Originally Posted by cbi1972 View Post
    If you think science and faith are equivalent with respect to knowledge improvement and revising belief to fit empiric observation, you're sorely mistaken. Boiling down scientific knowledge to a series of assumptions is disingenuous.
    We will have to agree to disagree here.

    Faith has led me to just as much knowledge as empiric observation. In fact empiric observation has let me to more faith than less. I can understand someone with no faith making this statement, but as someone who has faith I see this as a very uninformed and inexperienced opinion.
    Last edited by mittman; April 4th, 2012 at 12:44 PM.

  6. #161
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    Re: Conservatives trust in science has declined sharply

    Quote Originally Posted by mittman View Post
    We will have to agree to disagree here.

    Faith has led me to just as much knowledge as empiric observation. In fact empiric observation has let me to more faith than less. I can understand someone with no faith making this statement, but as someone who has faith I see this as a very uninformed and inexperienced opinion.
    Somehow I don't think we mean the same thing by 'knowledge'
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  7. #162
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    Re: Conservatives trust in science has declined sharply

    Quote Originally Posted by cbi1972 View Post
    Somehow I don't think we mean the same thing by 'knowledge'
    Ok, lets take one of my hard lessons learned as a hypothesis:

    It's better to give than to receive

    Not tooting my own horn here, but I have truly tested that hypothesis enough to know it is true well beyond any possibility of a statistical outlier. I can't tell you how many times that it has imporved my day doing it. More convincingly, I can't tell you how many times it came back in amounts equal to or more than I gave in the act, and in a way that to consider it a consequence would be laughable.

    You may not consider this scientific in the pure sense of the word, but it has been repeatable, quantifiable, and observable to me.

  8. #163
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    Re: Conservatives trust in science has declined sharply

    Quote Originally Posted by mittman View Post
    Ok, lets take one of my hard lessons learned as a hypothesis:

    It's better to give than to receive

    Not tooting my own horn here, but I have truly tested that hypothesis enough to know it is true well beyond any possibility of a statistical outlier. I can't tell you how many times that it has imporved my day doing it. More convincingly, I can't tell you how many times it came back in amounts equal to or more than I gave in the act, and in a way that to consider it a consequence would be laughable.

    You may not consider this scientific in the pure sense of the word, but it has been repeatable, quantifiable, and observable to me.
    Yeah, that's not what I am talking about.
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  9. #164
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    Re: Conservatives trust in science has declined sharply

    Quote Originally Posted by cbi1972 View Post
    Yeah, that's not what I am talking about.
    Ok I consider it valuable knowledge, derived from experience and testing. But I can see and understand how coming from your mindset it would not fall into the category. It's all good.

  10. #165

    Re: Conservatives trust in science has declined sharply

    SIAP It is not science that I have a problem with, it is junk science that has been bought and paid for to promote an ideology or political movement. It is the scientific "consensus" arrived at with grant money provided with that objective stated up front that brings skepticism into the conclusions.
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  11. #166
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Bamaro's Avatar
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    Re: Conservatives trust in science has declined sharply

    Quote Originally Posted by Gr8hope View Post
    SIAP It is not science that I have a problem with, it is junk science that has been bought and paid for to promote an ideology or political movement. It is the scientific "consensus" arrived at with grant money provided with that objective stated up front that brings skepticism into the conclusions.
    Easy to say with zero proof.

  12. #167
    BamaNation All-American mikes12's Avatar
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    Re: Conservatives trust in science has declined sharply

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamaro View Post
    Easy to say with zero proof.
    http://icecap.us/index.php/go/joes-b...lobal_warming/

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    Re: Conservatives trust in science has declined sharply

    I'm sure you can find a few other weathermen who are deniers also.
    http://uscentrist.org/about/issues/e...l-warming-scam

  14. #169
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    Re: Conservatives trust in science has declined sharply

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama_Dawg View Post
    Also, we're kind of missing the point, which is: Why don't democrats distrust scientists as much as conservatives do?
    Same as anything else. The science supports/is congruent with "democrat" beliefs and positions. In general, democrats support large government programs and mandates that (theoretically) benefit society. Most of these programs are reactive. People are poor? Guarantee them houses and food. Don't make much money? Enforce a "living" wage. Gas gets too high? Fix prices. Etc. The general theme is that the government should step in to right injustices and be active.

    Climate change fits in right along with this. If the climate is going to change drastically enough to change the way we live then the obvious move is to find a bureaucratic solution. If people are causing the change then something can be done about it. But go find a study with conclusive evidence that price and wage fixing are harmful to those they are supposed to help, and a "typical" democrat will tell you that's a bunch of BS. So much for trusting the scientific process! We are all hypocritical in some respects, and democrats are not somehow different, superior people that are impervious to accepting "evidence" that goes along with their viewpoint and discrediting that which doesn't.

    This narrative about conservatives being a pack of chanting druids is ridiculous. Just look at the national dialog, esp in the media. If you don't trust climate science then you are a "denier". A "denier" implies that one does not accept something that is patently true. You are covering your ears and tralala-ing as loud as you can. Well nobody wants to be the idiot who won't accept the obvious so they join the "crowd". The whole discussion is slanted right off the bat. Etc.


    As for the thread topic, I am in the same boat as most everyone else. I have no problem with science. But the "science" behind global warming/climate change is very fuzzy. A conclusion is based on data derived from assumptions built on assumption built on assumptions. It's like the old radioactive fallout equations. A bunch a variables with no real known value were multiplied together to get a "scientific" answer to a problem with large scale ramifications on the earth. Then everybody took that data and ran with it because it was the best they had and you certainly can't afford to be wrong in such circumstances. And because the math is foggy we get this whole "consensus" drivel. The conclusion of the climate models can not be proved, their accuracy can not be proved, many variables within the models can not be proved, so the makers of such models have to resort to "everybody else is doing it too". Well that's just stellar logic. So we get to this point of, "if it is true we are doomed; we have no better data; we MUST try something just in case". I refuse to accept those assumptions because crap data is crap data no matter how much of it there is. There is no need to jump for the sake of jumping.

    This was meant to be a short, 3-sentence tops post, but I got a little carried away. Sorry.
    Last edited by RammerJammer14; April 4th, 2012 at 07:05 PM.
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