News Article: Conservatives trust in science has declined sharply

nx4bama

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This is the sort of nonsense creationist web sites wrongly try to use to discredit techniques used to date the fossil record. The short answer is that other techniques are used to date very old rocks. I won't insult conservatism by lumping it with the views held by those anti-science buffoons, but these creationists do only seem to come from one side of the political fence. Another stripe of fact-oblivious buffoons occupy the other side.
first of all, that thought didn't come from a creationist website. i do have thoughts of my own. secondly, what other techniques are used to date rocks? all radiometric dating assumes a constant rate of decay. paleomagnetics assumes the poles have shifted at the same rate. no matter what methodology is used, you must operate under the assumption of constant rate of change. ASSUMING THAT THE EARTH IS BILLIONS OF YEARS OLD, we have not even observed enough change over the last 1000 years to accurately assess whether change is constant. That is .ooo1%. That would be the equivalent of me observing about 40 minutes of your life and making an assumption about the rest......
 

nx4bama

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Its absurd to believe the earth is not billions of years old.
ok, i can play this game too..... it is absurd to live in jacksonville, md..... if all we have to do is state something is absurd to make it so, then i've got plenty more where that came from ;)

and for the record... i'm just making an observation, not stating anything as fact.
 
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gmart74

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first of all, that thought didn't come from a creationist website. i do have thoughts of my own. secondly, what other techniques are used to date rocks? all radiometric dating assumes a constant rate of decay. paleomagnetics assumes the poles have shifted at the same rate. no matter what methodology is used, you must operate under the assumption of constant rate of change. ASSUMING THAT THE EARTH IS BILLIONS OF YEARS OLD, we have not even observed enough change over the last 1000 years to accurately assess whether change is constant. That is .ooo1%. That would be the equivalent of me observing about 40 minutes of your life and making an assumption about the rest......
even just studying tectonic plates shows the earth is extremely old... unless you believe gigatons of material can suddenly speed up or slow down yr by yr. additionally you can look at the overal temperature of earth and come to an approximate date. additionally we can track dna mutations through animals and tell that the earth is extremely old. even ice cores go back 800,000 yrs.

there are multiple studies in very different areas of science that all point to an ancient earth. radiodating is simply one of many that can be used. so unless you are willing to state that radioactivity, tectonic shift, dna mutation, the # of sumeers/winters in a yr, and heat capacity of earth all suddenly and drastically changed 10,000 yrs ago, then i'd say the science is fairly well established.
 
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nx4bama

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even just studying tectonic plates shows the earth is extremely old... unless you believe gigatons of material can suddenly speed up or slow down yr by yr. additionally you can look at the overal temperature of earth and come to an approximate date. additionally we can track dna mutations through animals and tell that the earth is extremely old. even ice cores go back 800,000 yrs.

there are multiple studies in very different areas of science that all point to an ancient earth. radiodating is simply one of many that can be used. so unless you are willing to state that radioactivity, tectonic shift, dna mutation, the # of sumeers/winters in a yr, and heat capacity of earth all suddenly and drastically changed 10,000 yrs ago, then i'd say the science is fairly well established.
not familiar with the ice cores.... i'll look into that for myself. all the others rely on some assumption. the tectonic plate speed depends on there actually being a "pangea" .... not sure how we could prove that. the temperature of earth is again, taking hundreds of years worth of data and applying it to billions of years.... .00001%... and assuming a constant rate of change. dna mutations require us to assume that they HAVE MUTATED, again something that was no observed.... your stacking theory upon theory. i understand that that is what science does and has done. i get all that. forgive me for suggesting that our assumptions might not be accurate....
 

mittman

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even just studying tectonic plates shows the earth is extremely old... unless you believe gigatons of material can suddenly speed up or slow down yr by yr. additionally you can look at the overal temperature of earth and come to an approximate date. additionally we can track dna mutations through animals and tell that the earth is extremely old. even ice cores go back 800,000 yrs.

there are multiple studies in very different areas of science that all point to an ancient earth. radiodating is simply one of many that can be used. so unless you are willing to state that radioactivity, tectonic shift, dna mutation, the # of sumeers/winters in a yr, and heat capacity of earth all suddenly and drastically changed 10,000 yrs ago, then i'd say the science is fairly well established.
This is the same old story. When you go here you really do sound like the flat earth people.

I do believe in an ancient earth. I am just one of those who are aware of the capacity of human beings to misunderstand data.

All he is trying to say is that when you study the history of the earth you see seismic shifts in everything. We (as humans) repeatedly discover a ‘truth’ that fundamentally changes how we interpret the small amount of data we have.

What breeds distrust (at least my distrust) is statements like yours where everyone is expected to just hop onboard. If there is any data we do have based on science it is to be VERY skeptical when someone makes a blanket statement without any room for dissent.

We can and should make decisions based on the best data available. That does not mean that those who disagree are always misinformed, misled, or kooks.
 

cbi1972

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not familiar with the ice cores.... i'll look into that for myself. all the others rely on some assumption. the tectonic plate speed depends on there actually being a "pangea" .... not sure how we could prove that. the temperature of earth is again, taking hundreds of years worth of data and applying it to billions of years.... .00001%... and assuming a constant rate of change. dna mutations require us to assume that they HAVE MUTATED, again something that was no observed.... your stacking theory upon theory. i understand that that is what science does and has done. i get all that. forgive me for suggesting that our assumptions might not be accurate....
By now we know how you operate, and it is clear that no amount of objective fact is sufficient for you to acknowledge the legitimacy of scientific observation, reason, and the obvious conclusions they generate. The base assumptions are that observation can tell us something about our universe, and that our world behaves consistently enough that we can discern rules for its operation with enough accuracy to make predictions which have the capacity to invalidate hypotheses. These assumptions require less faith and are more practical than any other worldview you care to name. If you wish to bask in a blissfully ignorant paradise of circular logic and special pleading where everything that happens, happens because some grand omnipotent being specifically willed it to happen, and that everyone trying to explain things in a way that makes actual sense is making false assumptions and pushing an agenda, then we have nothing to talk about.
 

gmart74

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When you go here you really do sound like the flat earth people.
seriously??? so when 100's if not 1000's of scientists, in almost every field of science, completely and separately come to a similar conclusion, then you give it the same level of rigor as ancient unscientific people who thought the world was flat? really.....

I am all for questioning science and keeping an open mind. i am absolutely a fan of questioning single studies in a single field.

We can and should make decisions based on the best data available. That does not mean that those who disagree are always misinformed, misled, or kooks.
I agree, but there isn't one single piece of scientific evidence that indicates the earth is only 6500 yrs old. not a single one. every scientific study shows the earth is at least a billion yrs old. even if they were wrong and misplaced a decimal point, that is still vastly older than creationists talk about. so im all for keeping an open mind, but at some point it is time to be realistic.

* oh yeah, i forgot to mention erosion studies support it as well- so in addition to all of the other assumptions, we also must believe that the grand canyon was formed a million times faster than ever measured. or that it rained for 1000 yrs nonstop in order to weather various geological structures, and then suddenly the weather became normal as soon as recorded history started. it just seems to me that young earth theory requires a level of hand waving that just can't be taken seriously by anyone with an open mind. to believe in young earth theory requires one of 2 beliefs
1. that every law of physics suddenly changed all in the last 10,000 yrs.
2. that god deceptively (and correct me if im wrong but isnt satan the one who is into deception) made the world look a lot older than it is.
 
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rizolltizide

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I guess you proving me right on 1 out of 2 isn't bad.

I am still amazed that you have friends in every organization that comes up around these topics even after you've somehow forced the inefficiency of their employer and all manner of other political topics into your conversations with them. I can't imagine being friends with someone like that. Maybe I dodged a bullet on you never taking me up on a single invitation to grab a beer.
I'ma take him out on my boat, but mainly because he says he has a hawt Asian wife. ;)
 

gmart74

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all the others rely on some assumption. the tectonic plate speed depends on there actually being a "pangea" .... not sure how we could prove that.
it doesnt really require pangea to exist- shapes of continents and fossils seem to indicate pangea existed. but let's say that it never existed. the himalayas are a clear product of continental drift. if they only move a few centimeters a yr, how many yrs does it take to make a mountain 30,000ft high? How about ethipia's rift valley? again, even if the scientists are off by a huge amount, ALL of the evidence shows earth to be old.
 

uafan4life

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I've never really understood the whole be-all-end-all debate over the "how old is the Earth" question when it comes to creationists versus non-creationists.

One solution to that apparent contradiction is that many creationists could very easily be wrong in trying to take the Genesis account of the creation as in being a literal 7 (24-hour) day period. There is nothing in the actual Hebrew text that prevents the Genesis account from being allegorical, even when taking into account the "Evening and Morning" references and the application of the seven days of creation with a seventh day of rest as a pattern for the Jewish Sabbath. After all, the seven "days" of creation came from God's perspective and not man's. Both David and Peter make references to God being outside of our concept of time. While those references are not talking directly about creation the principle is still a constant - God exists and acts outside of our time. Therefore an "age" or "era" or "day" - all the same Hebrew word - to God could conceivably refer to any amount of physical concept of time. Many "scholars" will point to the references in the Genesis account of the "Evening" and "Morning" being the first day, the second day, etc. as proof that it was a literal 24 hour period. As far as the "Evening" and "Morning" are concerned what determined, from God's perspective, when the "Evening" and "Morning" came? After all our "day" and, as a result, our "Evening" and "Morning" are determined by the speed of the Earth's rotation in relation to the Sun. According to the Genesis account the Sun wasn't created until the fourth day. How, then, was the "Evening" and "Morning" determined on days 1 to 3? If you take the creation account in Genesis to be allegorical as opposed to literal then there is no reason why God could not have created the universe in its infancy, set it in motion, watched and helped as necessary as it developed along its expansion, created (either miraculously or providentially) life on Earth, and then rested as His creation was ready to evolve on its own. This would naturally account for both the age and development of the Earth, as believed by Evolutionists, without making that age a contradiction to the Earth being God's creation.

Another solution is even simpler. First, everything in this universe is in order; it has rules, it has rhythm, it has consistency. Without that order all matter in the universe would exist in chaos and life would not be possible. Since those rules that govern the universe are both necessary for life as well as the foundation for many Evolutionists' beliefs, does it not follow logic that if God created the universe that He set those rules in place? If He set those rules in place, then does it not follow that His creation - from inception to destruction - would also follow those rules? If so, then even if God did create the universe in a literal week made up of 24 hour days He - having the power to create the universe - could have created it in the same state as if it had evolved naturally to that point. This possibility would not violate even a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation account while explaining the apparent age and evolution of the Earth and the universe.

Between these two possibilities; some combination of these two possibilities; and the additional probability that we are not as proficient in our understanding of the Earth, much less the entire universe, then the question of "how old is the Earth" - as far as Creationists are concerned - should neither be a stumbling block to nor even a contradiction of the belief that God created the Heavens and the Earth.

It's all a matter of perspective. After all, the validity and consequences of the answer depend entirely upon the question. For Evolutionists, the question is "How old is the Earth?" while, for Creationists, the question should be "How old does the Earth appear?" and, while both questions may have the same answer the ramifications of that answer vary greatly depending upon how you view the question.
 

cbi1972

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Positing an omnipotent creator for the rules of the universe is an example of the logical fallacy of special pleading (everything requires a creator except a creator). But worse, it has no explanatory value and makes no predictions, so it is simply not science.
 

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