Poll: Would you vote for a short, mandatory, military/civil service for [most] US citizens?

How would you vote on this issue?

  • Yes

    Votes: 14 30.4%
  • No

    Votes: 31 67.4%
  • I wouldn't vote, for whatever reason.

    Votes: 1 2.2%

  • Total voters
    46

uafan4life

Hall of Fame
Mar 30, 2001
15,608
7,414
287
43
Florence, AL
Also, to take this in even another direction, let's say that this isn't a federally run program. What if it were a State run program?

Let's say that, instead of having to serve in the U.S. Military, citizens had to serve in their State Militia? Would that change your opinion on such a program?
 

uafan4life

Hall of Fame
Mar 30, 2001
15,608
7,414
287
43
Florence, AL
Sure, but my view is skewed because I was one of the ones responsible for weeding out the unsuitable. I'm jaded and I admit it. I'm interested in knowing how those of you who may not have been in any of the support corps see it differently.
Ok, well, at least you can admit it - that's the first step. :biggrin2:


Unfortunately, I wasn't even able to finish my cup of coffee in the service (medical) so I don't have the breadth of experience that many here do. However, in what little experience I do have, I can say that I've seen the military take people that I wouldn't have trusted to safely hold my socks for 10 minutes before their service and turn them into people that, if necessary, I could trust with my life in combat.
 

willie52

All-American
Jan 25, 2008
2,162
154
87
Arab, AL
Care to start us off? :)
I spent 22 years in the Air Force in Weather Equipment/Navaids. I've seen those who wanted to come in and those who did so because it was that or face consequences. In the 18 years as a supervisor then superintendent, I have had to get rid of two. Of the others, they came from all walks of life but the single thing that was given to them is do your job and you will be treated fairly and equitably, we work hard and play hard. Do not do it and face a wrath worse than any court or parent. I've had kids who stole, one's who thought the whole world hated them to those who would cry if the wind blew the wrong way. The common theme for them is they made something of themselves and became proud of the jobs they did. I just gave them the tools, they worked the farm. Miss them all.
 

G-VilleTider

Suspended
Aug 17, 2006
2,062
52
72
Of those of you in favor of it, which of you have served in the military? If so, how do you think that has shaped your stance on mandatory military service?
The biggest morale killer isn't the heat or cold, long hours or hard work. Its like it is everywhere. People with bad attitudes who don't won't to be there. And our military both deserves and NEEDS good morale to be at their best.

I can "understand" the view of having a forced civil service. Afterall, we "force" people to go to school until a certain age. But please leave our military as a volunteer force.
 

mittman

All-American
Jun 19, 2009
3,942
0
0
To be clear what I was talking about for service to citizenship would be for those that are non citizens to begin with.

I served with some who were forced to serve or face some other punishment, even prison. I am not sure if they even do that anymore. Some it helped, one ended up in prison.

Those that are opposed based on bugetary grounds I believe are correct. The short service times put us in the position of training people and not getting the return on investment. Even if the total service time is 4 years.

I don't disagree that it would be good for a lot of people. I just don't think it is the best way to go.
 

SavannahDare

Hall of Fame
Jul 23, 2004
15,169
316
102
Gulf Breeze, Florida
I've seen kids who desperately needed structure and to be taught self-discipline volunteer for military service and blossom into fantastic sailors, Marines, soldiers and airmen, then go on to become exceptional leaders themselves. I've also seen many volunteer under duress (usually to get out of legal consequences for their behavior). Of those, I'd say it's a coin toss as to whether they "blossom" or wilt. Many of the ones who went in because they felt they had no other option ended up in my office or the brig (sometimes both) and ultimately got separated either for their bad conduct or their character disorder.

In general, I'd say our military is best-served by a volunteer force. Once mandatory service is introduced, you're going to incur more of a burden of having to separate the keepers from the losers, which not only wastes money (it costs to train them and most of them don't wash out until after or near the end of training), but also detracts from unit morale and cohesiveness.

Obviously, I'm speaking in terms of peace time or during war when we're still able to meet our recruitment needs. Were a large war effort to be needed that necessitated a draft, however, I'd be in support of that (but not over an extended period of time unless it were a global war situation).
 

willie52

All-American
Jan 25, 2008
2,162
154
87
Arab, AL
To be clear what I was talking about for service to citizenship would be for those that are non citizens to begin with.

I served with some who were forced to serve or face some other punishment, even prison. I am not sure if they even do that anymore. Some it helped, one ended up in prison.

Those that are opposed based on bugetary grounds I believe are correct. The short service times put us in the position of training people and not getting the return on investment. Even if the total service time is 4 years.

I don't disagree that it would be good for a lot of people. I just don't think it is the best way to go.
I don't disagree and it makes good sense, in order to train someone to the level of expertise really needed takes more than two or three years and just a ball park guess, several hundred thousand dollars. I say yes just because I was military and like to stir some people up though I have seen the good it can do to have that structure in their life. Doesn't work for all but it has with most I have encountered, it is also affected by the career field taken.
 

Dallas4Bama

Suspended
Sep 27, 2006
3,882
0
0
Dallas, Texas
Currently we basically use our public school system to feed children, parent children, teach our children morals, babysit our children after school, teach our children about sex and global warming, teach them what to eat and what to wear, teach them about everything it seems but math, reading and science if you look at the test scores.

So now you propose we use our military to teach discipline, hard work, respect, etc... Wow, talk about an elite fighting force. A bunch of guys that would rather be laying on a sofa somewhere playing video games. That would really make me feel good about our national security.

Sure, it has worked out so well with public education it is bound to be successful. ;)

Beyond the failure that would befall it like most government programs it robs us of freedom. There is a big difference in sitting in a chair in a room listening to testimony and being assigned a duty by the government for 2-4 years. The two aren't comparable and your insistence that it is shows you're grasping at straws.

Look, many of the people who have good paying jobs through our government have a terrible attitude and add to the problems we face. Ever been to the post office in a major city? Ever been to the DMV in Atlanta? Have you ever been to the social security office in Dallas? Have you ever been to a federal building to conduct business? Most of those people are paid well compared to people in the private sector with equal levels of responsibility. They also pretty much know they will never be fired and don't face the daily threat of downsizing and corporate mergers and acquisitions. Now imagine if those same people were forced into that same service position for free. You think things move slow now?!?

If you want to play the word switching game try this one. Switch the word government with king. Who wants to serve the king for 2 years? It's a silly game.
 
Last edited:

RammerJammer14

Hall of Fame
Aug 18, 2007
14,511
6,521
187
UA
No. There are already deadbeats that get in as it is. I don't want a bunch of kids who don't even want to be there making a mess of things. Also, I don't think we need a military that large. What would we do with all those people? It just dilutes the professionalism and readiness of the military. It would also really diminish the pride of serving.
 

Tidewater

Hall of Fame
Mar 15, 2003
22,401
13,177
287
Hooterville, Vir.
No. There are already deadbeats that get in as it is. I don't want a bunch of kids who don't even want to be there making a mess of things. Also, I don't think we need a military that large. What would we do with all those people? It just dilutes the professionalism and readiness of the military. It would also really diminish the pride of serving.
Agreed. If we want our military to be a instrument of social engineering, making young people into better citizens, that is one thing. But if we want our military to go to places around the world on short notice and kill people we think need killing, then universal military service would make that impossible.
Plus, it would be very expensive. Our military now is well-paid, but small in numbers.
Bring in huge numbers of conscripts and you'd have to either establish two pay scales (conscripts vs volunteers) or you'd swell the Federal budget by a huge margin.
 

Dallas4Bama

Suspended
Sep 27, 2006
3,882
0
0
Dallas, Texas
Yes, 2 years, provide college credit, tasks like CCC & Teach for America & Peace Corps beyond just military. The country would be better for it.
CCC task? Seriously? The CCC would never work today. When that program was put into place at least 85% of American still lived on a farm. It could be a higher percentage, but I don't want to look it up right now. People who grow up on a farm and farming know how to work. They know how to work with their hands, how to work with hand tools, work with mules, run tractors, mix concrete, drive nails, cut lumber, lay bricks, build barns, houses, etc... THey could just do those things without any kind of training programs. It came natural because that was the type of things they did daily. They were also used to working from dawn to dusk with minimum breaks. They were used to the heat and the cold because they worked in it ever day.

In addition to that they wanted to work. That was back when most men really believed a man was worth what a man produced. He took pride in his ability to work and do a job well. They also knew that work was the expected way of life and there were no free lunches. Men lined up and sought these programs out. There was no 99 weeks of unemployement, no welfare, no disability, no medicaid, etc... Life demanded you work for your keep. That attitude just is not there today. many Americans laugh at the Greeks, but we aren't far behind them. I'm afraid the attitude of entitlement is to the point of no return for the most part.

So the other option is forced labor. Without the threat of bodily harm, denial of food and water or death it's pretty hard to force someone to work. I was put into the unfortunate position of trying to force some young men that didn't want to work to work. It was like trying to herd cats, it's impossible. They began by acting as if they didn't know how to do anything including use a shovel, of course some I'm pretty sure really didn't know how to. Next they broke everything they could so they didn't have to work or pretended to be hurt. Finally some just sat down and said there was no way we could force them to do anything.

Throw in some governement regulation and you have a scenario where you could get 100 feet of ditch dug in a weeks time with 100 men. There would be manditory training program time, manditory breaks, manditory time for religious meditation, etc... Then add the regulation of working condidtion and other mess the ACLU and other union organizations would come up with and you could never get anything done.

Although people don't want to admit it there is a reason people who come from south of the boarder are the wones doing the majority of the physical labor in this country. They come wanting to work, for the most part trained on physical labor and physically conditioned for it. They also don't try to get some government organization to demand a certain level of pay for unskilled labor or come up with regulations so they don't have to work. The work force from Mexico is about where the one in the US was 70-80 years ago.
 

uafan4life

Hall of Fame
Mar 30, 2001
15,608
7,414
287
43
Florence, AL
People who grow up on a farm and farming know how to work. They know how to work with their hands, how to work with hand tools, work with mules, run tractors, mix concrete, drive nails, cut lumber, lay bricks, build barns, houses, etc... THey could just do those things without any kind of training programs. It came natural because that was the type of things they did daily.

I completely agree with you about the whole lack of work ethic thing.

However, I disagree with people being unable to do those things simply because a majority of our society doesn't farm for a living. I didn't grow up on a farm. I'm currently a software developer. And I know for a fact that I can do every one of those things you listed at least decent enough to pass inspection.

I've literally built a house with my own hands from slab to paint. I designed the entire floor plan from scratch. I had three other guys helping me frame it up and also helping with some of the "finishing" carpentry work, and my wife and mom both helped a lot with the interior stuff. I did all the electrical and low voltage wiring throughout the house by myself. I also laid over 1500 sqft of hardwood flooring by myself. In the end, based upon what a contractor would have charged for building it, by doing the "contracting" and as much of the labor as I could do myself I saved over $50,000 (about 30% of the first contractor's estimate of the total cost for him to build the house) when building that house.

In my opinion, if I can do it then pretty much anyone can do it.


Sent from my Asus Transformer using Tapatalk 2
 

Tider@GW_Law

All-American
Sep 16, 2007
3,151
0
0
Sacramento, CA
CCC task? Seriously? The CCC would never work today.
Not sure what the point of your rant was, but the California Conservation Corps is still going strong today and doing a lot of good work for relatively little money.

The quote on their website is actually: "Hard work, low pay, miserable conditions ... and more!" They don't want folks signing up not knowing what they're getting into.

I think every man should have to get his hands dirty at some point in his life. Why do you think those young men were so terrified of manual labor?!?!?
 

Dallas4Bama

Suspended
Sep 27, 2006
3,882
0
0
Dallas, Texas
The quote on their website is actually: "Hard work, low pay, miserable conditions ... and more!" They don't want folks signing up not knowing what they're getting into.
Thank you. Even they know that having people in their organization that don't want to do the work won't work. Mandatory service in something like that won't work.

BTW, not sure what you are calling a rant. It was just a response to your post. IF I WERE TYPING LIKE THIS IT WOULD BE A RANT!!!!!! This is just normal.
 

Dallas4Bama

Suspended
Sep 27, 2006
3,882
0
0
Dallas, Texas
I completely agree with you about the whole lack of work ethic thing.

However, I disagree with people being unable to do those things simply because a majority of our society doesn't farm for a living. I didn't grow up on a farm. I'm currently a software developer. And I know for a fact that I can do every one of those things you listed at least decent enough to pass inspection.

I've literally built a house with my own hands from slab to paint. I designed the entire floor plan from scratch. I had three other guys helping me frame it up and also helping with some of the "finishing" carpentry work, and my wife and mom both helped a lot with the interior stuff. I did all the electrical and low voltage wiring throughout the house by myself. I also laid over 1500 sqft of hardwood flooring by myself. In the end, based upon what a contractor would have charged for building it, by doing the "contracting" and as much of the labor as I could do myself I saved over $50,000 (about 30% of the first contractor's estimate of the total cost for him to build the house) when building that house.

In my opinion, if I can do it then pretty much anyone can do it.


Sent from my Asus Transformer using Tapatalk 2
First of all I have to say again your tag line about the mobile posting always cracks me up.

But back to the point, I will say if you are able to do those things I'm very impressed. But I also have to disagree that its something most men today can do. Through working with habitat for humanity, heading a disaster relief response team, city redevelopment board, CERT team and other things where we take well meaning average people off the street to do small projects I have seen first hand the lack of skill. Now don't get me wrong, if its a project in most of Alabama, Georgia, Texas, Oklahoma, etc... I can usually find people who have some skills. But go into the urban areas where most of the population in this country resides that isn't the case at all. Cities like Houston, Dallas and Atlanta for example where I've worked directly with the people are full of men that can't drive a nail. That's the grown men, who more than likely grew up in what you might call old city life. Old city life was where the kids came home and played outside, built club houses, played sand lit ball and stuff like that. The ones that grew up in the video game era where kids come home from school and stay inside the rest of the day. Most have never been given a house or yard chore to do. Heck, a lot of them have never even seen their dad do a yard chore. I'm the only person on my street that mows my own yard.

It isn't new, when I was in school at BAMA I did all kinds of automobile maintenance for the kids in my condo unit. Most were from Vestavia, Hoover, etc... and didn't know how to put oil in their truck, change a burned out headlight, change spark plugs and other things I have been doing since I was a kid. Much of rural America may still have some knowledge and skull, but I've seen first hand the lack of it in the urban areas.

You are the exception my friend, not the rule.
 
Last edited:

BamaBrass

Suspended
Feb 14, 2004
994
27
52
48
Ringgold, GA
No. There are already deadbeats that get in as it is. I don't want a bunch of kids who don't even want to be there making a mess of things. Also, I don't think we need a military that large. What would we do with all those people? It just dilutes the professionalism and readiness of the military. It would also really diminish the pride of serving.
Amen !!
 

uafan4life

Hall of Fame
Mar 30, 2001
15,608
7,414
287
43
Florence, AL
First of all I have to say again your tag line about the mobile posting always cracks me up.
It's pronounced "Ay-Soos" and they are pretty much the best, if not in actuality the best, computer component manufacturer in the world.


But back to the point, I will say if you are able to do those things I'm very impressed. But I also have to disagree that its something most men today can do. Through working with habitat for humanity, heading a disaster relief response team, city redevelopment board, CERT team and other things where we take well meaning average people off the street to do small projects I have seen first hand the lack of skill. Now don't get me wrong, if its a project in most of Alabama, Georgia, Texas, Oklahoma, etc... I can usually find people who have some skills. But go into the urban areas where most of the population in this country resides that isn't the case at all. Cities like Houston, Dallas and Atlanta for example where I've worked directly with the people are full of men that can't drive a nail. That's the grown men, who more than likely grew up in what you might call old city life. Old city life was where the kids came home and played outside, built club houses, played sand lit ball and stuff like that. The ones that grew up in the video game era where kids come home from school and stay inside the rest of the day. Most have never been given a house or yard chore to do. Heck, a lot of them have never even seen their dad do a yard chore. I'm the only person on my street that mows my own yard.

It isn't new, when I was in school at BAMA I did all kinds of automobile maintenance for the kids in my condo unit. Most were from Vestavia, Hoover, etc... and didn't know how to put oil in their truck, change a burned out headlight, change spark plugs and other things I have been doing since I was a kid. Much of rural America may still have some knowledge and skull, but I've seen first hand the lack of it in the urban areas.

You are the exception my friend, not the rule.
I've worked on a few building projects - Habitat for Humanity, Community Projects for repairing or remodeling someone's home or business, mission trips to build a church or school, etc. - and while not everyone there was doing the right things the right way from the get-go pretty much everyone was able to pick it up well enough to get the job done.

I obviously had to learn how to do those things at some point; it wasn't just intuitive. My point was merely about ability or aptitude. There are always going to be people who "can't" do something or at least "can't" do it properly. However, in my opinion, that "can't" is, in reality, almost always just a "won't" or a "don't care enough to".

My point wasn't that you could drag any number of people off of the street and all or most of them would be able to do those things. My point was that if I, given my background and my profession, can learn to at least be proficient in those things that pretty much anyone could learn to be proficient in those things. Whether they are willing to or not is another story. At that point it just becomes a question of motivation. After that point it just depends on what kind and how much "motivation" different lawyers and/or rights' organizations will let you get away with. :)
 

Latest threads

TideFans.shop : 2024 Madness!

TideFans.shop - Get YOUR Bama Gear HERE!”></a>
<br />

<!--/ END TideFans.shop & item link \-->
<p style= Purchases made through our TideFans.shop and Amazon.com links may result in a commission being paid to TideFans.