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Thread: Johnny Football

  1. #1
    Big-12 All American owenfieldreams's Avatar
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    Johnny Football

    Greetings from the Texas riviera. Been a while since I posted on Tidefans. I thought you all might be interested in some incite into how a relatively lightly recruited kid like Manziel becomes such an instant star.Many who regularly follow this forum probably already are aware of what I'm about to relate but this may be interesting to some.

    Historically, Texas H.S. football was known for running backs and linebackers. Obviously, this was a manifestation of a high school philosophy that was ground oriented. Over the years, however, there's been a transformation in offensive philosophy that has changed Texas H.S. football dramatically and has made Texas the equal of California in terms of producing elite QB's and WR's.

    I can go back to the days of Port Neches Groves in the Beaumont area or when the Detmers were tearing it up in the Valley but the transformation to the spread O and the development of quality QB's and WR's started with schools like Stephensville and Austin Westlake and exploded @ Southlake Carroll and others who joined the bandwagon. Then the UIL made 7 on 7 spring/summer leagues legal and as they say, the rest his history.

    Now, there are Texas QB's playing at major college programs across the country and so many quality QB's are coming out of the state annually, that opportunities to recruit them by schools from coast to coast are huge. Stafford, Daniels, McElroy, Ponder, Luck and on and on and on are all products of Texas H.S. wide open offensive football. This transformation along with Bob Stoops bringing Mike Leach to OU has had a dramatic affect on Big 12 football. Everyone knows that the Big 12, specifically it's roots in the Big 8 and SWC was a physically punishing ground game league. OU, UT, Nebraska, Colorado et al were known for their relentless running attacks. Now, the spread has taken over the league and as you all saw Saturday, it has forced a change in D philosophy to combat the quick strike, YAC, athletes in space, manner by which Big 12 O's operate.

    Add the "hurry-up" to the mix and it pretty much blows D stats out of the water. It's very hard to prepare for these O's week in and week out. However, these O's are all about timing and that's why many of us who follow it closely think these O's struggle in bowl games because the layoff disrupts the timing and the opposing team has a long time to prepare.

    Guys like Manziel come out every year and are simply not recruited by schools you'd think would be all over them (see UT). Now, clearly, Manziel is special but he's a product of a metamorphasis in Texas H.S. football.

    OU's entire recruiting philosophy in terms of D has been changed because of evolution of the Big 12. Don't forget, Sumlin was on our staff as O coordinator before he went to Houston. His O coordinator was a star QB @ TT under Leach who was also our O coordinator. If A&M can put a quality D on the field to match their O, they will be a force to be reckoned with. I think their move to the SEC was brilliant and they have a chance to blow UT and possibly OU out of the recruiting water in Texas.

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    BamaNation Second Team TideJunkie's Avatar
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    Re: Johnny Football

    Don't get me wrong, Manziel is a talented kid with a lot of upside but I personally do not think he is all that and a bag of chips. He is not all that big (he reminds me a lot of Doug Flutie) and it appears to me that he has no pocket presence. A tendancy to keep the ball and run at the first sign of trouble is not always a good thing and if he has any desire to play in the pass happy NFL down the line he needs to learn to stay in the pocket more. He may have set the college game on it's ear this year but now there will be a years worth of tape to watch on the kid and DC's will figure him out. And no I do not think he is a heisman candidate this year.
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    BamaNation All-American crimsonkelly's Avatar
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    Re: Johnny Football

    See Urban Meyer and his offense a few years ago. It took 3 years for the SEC defense to catch up, when they did, it was all over (lets remember how much Alabama actually lost off of last years team, this was billed as a rebuilding year on the defense!). The SEC defenses will catch up to aTm and when they do, I am not so sure what they will do then since their recruiting grounds is a spread offense "hotbed". As far as a Heisman candidate this year, I think he belongs at worst on the stage with those guys, if not taking the trophy home assuming he finishes out the season as well as he has done so far. I think Klein takes it home imho. Manziel has been fun to watch.
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    Re: Johnny Football

    I don't think he will be a good nfl QB, but he's a special guy at this level.

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    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: Johnny Football

    Quote Originally Posted by AUTigers001 View Post
    I don't think he will be a good nfl QB, but he's a special guy at this level.
    And?
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    Re: Johnny Football

    I enjoy watching him (not against Bama) but if Tebow can't make it in the NFL, Johnny doesn't have much of a shot either. I'm sure he'll make a great Army Captain one day though ;-)
    I know what it takes to win. If I can sell them on what it takes to win, then we are not going to lose too many football games. - Coach Paul Bryant and I can see Coach Nick Saban agreeing completely.

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    Big-12 All American owenfieldreams's Avatar
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    Re: Johnny Football

    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonkelly View Post
    See Urban Meyer and his offense a few years ago. It took 3 years for the SEC defense to catch up, when they did, it was all over (lets remember how much Alabama actually lost off of last years team, this was billed as a rebuilding year on the defense!). The SEC defenses will catch up to aTm and when they do, I am not so sure what they will do then since their recruiting grounds is a spread offense "hotbed". As far as a Heisman candidate this year, I think he belongs at worst on the stage with those guys, if not taking the trophy home assuming he finishes out the season as well as he has done so far. I think Klein takes it home imho. Manziel has been fun to watch.
    My post was not about how the SEC as a conference would adjust. I also don't think he's a Heisman candidate, at least not @ this stage. I will say this, the O Meyer ran @ Florida was not a classic spread as is seen week in and week out in the Big 12. I'd actually compare Florida with Tebow to a zone read/ single-wing type scheme. The spreads you see in the Big 12 utilize huge line splits, pass routes that have multiple options, and a fast pace that keeps the D off balance.

    My point is that QB's like Manziel are regularly coming out of Texas due to the change in the style of H.S. football being played down here. Many think this style has also had a detrimental affect on the quality of D-linemen coming out of the state. Most kids now, assuming they have the size, are in the O-line for obvious reasons.

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    Re: Johnny Football

    Owen, thanks for the context. I do think he's a Heisman candidate, and I actually think he is already far more physically gifted than Doug Flutie. His arm strength will improve, so will his decisions as he plays more snaps.

    The wild card in all of this are injuries. At some point, somebody will have a clear shot, and young Johnny will have his head handed to him in an egg cup.

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    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: Johnny Football

    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEyeshade View Post
    Owen, thanks for the context. I do think he's a Heisman candidate, and I actually think he is already far more physically gifted than Doug Flutie. His arm strength will improve, so will his decisions as he plays more snaps.

    The wild card in all of this are injuries. At some point, somebody will have a clear shot, and young Johnny will have his head handed to him in an egg cup.
    That's always the question when an offense demands that a QB take so many hits. It was always a problem for us during the wishbone years. It means that you have to have two, preferably three, good, dual purpose QBs on board. It seemed to me that Manziel was a little less eager to be hit in the second half...
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

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    Re: Johnny Football

    How much more arm strength does Manziel need? He was firing on-target passes all night. The majority of his incompletions involved great Alabama DB plays.

    Leading the SEC in rushing and almost leading it in passing is ... special.

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    Re: Johnny Football

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    That's always the question when an offense demands that a QB take so many hits. It was always a problem for us during the wishbone years. It means that you have to have two, preferably three, good, dual purpose QBs on board. "It seemed to me that Manziel was a little less eager to be hit in the second half"...
    Yes, I noticed this as well.
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    Re: Johnny Football

    I can see the love/hate affair with this kid reaching Tebowic proportions.

    Carry on.
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    Re: Johnny Football

    Quote Originally Posted by rizolltizide View Post
    I can see the love/hate affair with this kid reaching Tebowic proportions.

    Carry on.
    The horrid nickname has the potential to take it to another level.
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