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  1. #326
    BamaNation All-American KrAzY3's Avatar
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    Re: next round of expansion already getting underway

    Quote Originally Posted by MOAN View Post
    There is no way to have as many teams as we have in the top division of college football and make everyone happy. Its a never ending discussion.
    That's why I would have preferred they not go to a 4 team playoff and limit the number of FBS teams instead. I'm not arguing with your logic though.
    Quote Originally Posted by GrayTide View Post
    if we were 11-1 in the ACC would we have been in New Orleans and Miami?
    Who could Alabama have lost to in the ACC? May be the 2010 Alabama team would have lost an ACC game, but that's all I can come up with. An undefeated Alabama team in the ACC? I think they'd have made the championship game.

    2008 is harder to figure out, but 2011 pretty clearly would still have been LSU vs. Alabama and 2012 would have been undefeated Alabama vs. undefeated Notre Dame. That's assuming an intact Alabama team could have been transported to the ACC.
    "Everybody that chooses to go to the game should stay there and support the team for the game." - Nick Saban
    "This is how it should be every game, every home game... the fans were just amazing". - Kevin Norwood on 2013 LSU game
    "Four, five-star recruits are in Tuscaloosa, and then they see a stadium start emptying out at halftime"

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  3. #327
    BamaNation All-American Matt0424's Avatar
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    Re: next round of expansion already getting underway

    Quote Originally Posted by KrAzY3 View Post
    I can't completely agree with that, in part because of the variables. If everyone is healthy and the game is played on a truly neutral site? Sure, I think that is usually the case. But, injuries, the rigors of the schedule, etc... play a huge role in how things actually play out.

    College football can still produce these results that boggle the mind. Nebraska had 2 losses, at that point the same as Stanford, Texas A&M, LSU, etc... They play a Wisconsin team that was 4-4 in conference, that would have 6 losses and they don't just get beat, they get beat 70-31.

    In Wisconsin's defense, they were MUCH better then their record. The WORST loss the suffered was 7 points to tOSU. Their other four losses were by a combined 12 points. They then went on to beat a good Stanford team who I will get to in a second.

    SEC: Alabama - No argument there.
    Big 12: Kansas St. - I don't think they belong, they did get blown out after all, but they did just have one loss.
    Pac-12: Stanford - This is a two loss team, that already was beaten by Notre Dame, you know the middle of the pack SEC team, so why on earth do they belong?
    Okay, so Stanford had no business losing to Washington...I get that. The Notre Dame loss, though, isn't as bad as it seems. Firstly, that was before Stanford settled on Hogan as a QB. After Hogan took over, the team went in a different direction. The Stanford that lost to ND isn't the one who beat Oregon...the team everyone thinks was "second best" this year...

    ACC: Florida St. - Two loss team, which you think is worthy of mentioning, because losing to NC State is apparently the way to make a run at a national championship.
    Big 10: Wisconsin - Because, after all that's a playoff without a mediocre team? Glad to see you found room for one. 5 loss team playing for a championship.
    As I said earlier...five deceptive losses. Yes, they still lost...but I would still say they were better then you're trying to give them credit for the sake of this "argument".

    At large:
    Notre Dame - Hey look, a team that actually belongs!
    Florida - Well, look at it this way, they wouldn't lose to Clemson.
    Oregon - Another chance to fail.

    Ok, so that's your criteria. 5 automatics, 3 at large. No Georgia, Texas A&M, no Louisville, and obviously no Ohio St. You're doing the classic grass is always greener argument, you set up a 8 team playoff, then you go and you name 6 teams, most of which wouldn't even make it in your own scenario!

    Do you want to try again?
    Thank you Mr Slive for your input...

    I am for argument, but coming in and belittling someone's idea because it isn't yours is ridiculous. There was a time when the SEC got left out (remember 2004?), and it is bound to happen again (would have this year). Then you'd be complaining about the system...

  4. #328
    BamaNation All-American KrAzY3's Avatar
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    Re: next round of expansion already getting underway

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt0424 View Post
    In Wisconsin's defense, they were MUCH better then their record.
    We can make excuses for plenty of teams. For instance, 2010 Alabama could have beaten any team in college football. We can excuse each loss, and in a playoff they could have very well won it all. The trick is they wouldn't have deserved it, and that is the basis for my opinion on playoffs. They did lose those three games, and I think those should count. Teams that are much better than their record are exactly what I'm worried about. Like those USC teams that would always trip up, but we'd always hear some analyst tell us they were in fact the best team. Sure, give them a 2 or 3 game season and they might win out, but they should have lost their chance in the regular season.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt0424 View Post
    Thank you Mr Slive for your input...

    I am for argument, but coming in and belittling someone's idea because it isn't yours is ridiculous. There was a time when the SEC got left out (remember 2004?), and it is bound to happen again (would have this year). Then you'd be complaining about the system...
    Slive is pro-playoff. He's one of the ones that pushed this thing through. As far as belittling, I'm not exactly arguing a popular position. I don't take things personally, and I don't expect anyone else to either, unless of course I make personal remarks.

    Once again, I didn't complain about the system before Alabama won their BCS championships, and completely agree that Auburn should have been left out. It's not about who is left out, it's about why and I haven't found disagreement with the champion of the BCS yet.
    "Everybody that chooses to go to the game should stay there and support the team for the game." - Nick Saban
    "This is how it should be every game, every home game... the fans were just amazing". - Kevin Norwood on 2013 LSU game
    "Four, five-star recruits are in Tuscaloosa, and then they see a stadium start emptying out at halftime"

  5. #329
    BamaNation All-American Matt0424's Avatar
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    Re: next round of expansion already getting underway

    The problem with your thinking, IMO, is that the best teams are always the undefeated ones. That is often not the case. Teams lose...that's life. College Football is the ONLY sport where losing a single game can ruin your season. While that makes it "more exciting" during the season, it also kills a lot of people's hopes really quickly. That causes interest to dwindle significantly for some teams. I think a four team playoff is great for football...

    My only disagreement (and one thing I'll agree with you on) is about the Conference Championships... I think under this new format that we should either drop them, or re-tool them somehow. It makes no sense, as you said, for a team to lose their conference title game and then turn around and play in the playoff...yet I don't want to make it Conference Champs only, because that doesn't make sense. That's a catch 22...

  6. #330
    BamaNation All-American KrAzY3's Avatar
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    Re: next round of expansion already getting underway

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt0424 View Post
    The problem with your thinking, IMO, is that the best teams are always the undefeated ones. That is often not the case. Teams lose...that's life. College Football is the ONLY sport where losing a single game can ruin your season.
    Problem? I think you'll see me frequently use terms like deserving.

    Of course the "best" team, in terms of their potential can have several losses. But, if that's the only measure then what's the point of someone like Nick Saban? What's the point of overachieving if it doesn't count anyway? Notre Dame might have overachieved, but in the process they beat two conference champs, and went undefeated. That should matter, that should be rewarded. Pro sports, NCAA basketball, etc... are littered with teams that phone it in during the regular season. I mean, all you really want is a decent seed, right? How do we even know true greatness in the regular season of those sports? The stakes are, as you point out much lower.

    Greatness is not what someone is capable of, it is rising to the moment. Greatness is winning when you might not be the best team on the field that day. Winning a championship in college football has demanded greatness. Best? Was Rocky Marciano the best boxer every time he stepped into the ring? May be he wasn't, but he still won every time. Ali, who many consider the best, lost 5 times. Best to me is not what it's about, it's about true greatness which goes beyond ability. It's about who you are on your worst day, it's about what you can summon up when things are not going your way.

    The last thing you said, is a virtue in my mind. It's a wonderful thing, and it's one reason I believe college football has become the second most popular sport in America (third depending on the data). For instance, I'm looking at a poll which has college football third behind MLB, with NCAA basketball down at 7th. Ahead of NASCAR, NBA, NHL, and it's an amateur sport! I can't fathom how we can both love this so much like it is and then want to change it. It's illogical, but we are doing it anyway.

    We hear the must win term thrown around from time to time in other sports, but college football has the only regular season when that doesn't even need to be stated.
    "Everybody that chooses to go to the game should stay there and support the team for the game." - Nick Saban
    "This is how it should be every game, every home game... the fans were just amazing". - Kevin Norwood on 2013 LSU game
    "Four, five-star recruits are in Tuscaloosa, and then they see a stadium start emptying out at halftime"

  7. #331
    BamaNation Hall of Fame GrayTide's Avatar
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    Re: next round of expansion already getting underway

    Good post Krazy and you are right about separation between potential and performance. My whole point is to narrow down the field of potential teams by excluding lesser quality football conferences. Then the decision can be made as to a format and number of teams.
    "My momma always said you got to put the past behind you before you can move on." Forrest Gump

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  8. #332
    BamaNation All-American KrAzY3's Avatar
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    Re: next round of expansion already getting underway

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayTide View Post
    Good post Krazy and you are right about separation between potential and performance. My whole point is to narrow down the field of potential teams by excluding lesser quality football conferences. Then the decision can be made as to a format and number of teams.
    I completely agree that the field should be narrowed. I don't see why we should have more than 20 FBS bowls or 100 teams. Some people have argued that they love watching the bowls, well fine, make lower level bowls (although I'm a bit confused, I thought everyone liked the playoffs better?). There is an irony to the fact that we pretend to care about player safety, but we shrunk the scholarship limits while expanding the number of games. How does that help with safety again? Of course it was just done to provide football welfare, and we've seen a massive influx of FBS programs since the last round of scholarship reductions (something like 30).

    This created a new class of undefeated or teams with stellar records who never actually played anyone decent. It muddied the water a great deal. This year is a good example, as Florida St. has a SoS of 66, Ohio St. was 60, Clemson was 61 and notably Louisville had an SoS of 70 (it was lower before they played Florida).

    I think all you need to do is make a common sense adjustment to scholarship numbers, and you'll solve most of the problems. But, they'd rather have forced parity, confusion, and a playoff...
    "Everybody that chooses to go to the game should stay there and support the team for the game." - Nick Saban
    "This is how it should be every game, every home game... the fans were just amazing". - Kevin Norwood on 2013 LSU game
    "Four, five-star recruits are in Tuscaloosa, and then they see a stadium start emptying out at halftime"

  9. #333
    BamaNation All-SEC MOAN's Avatar
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    Re: next round of expansion already getting underway

    Quote Originally Posted by KrAzY3 View Post
    I completely agree that the field should be narrowed. I don't see why we should have more than 20 FBS bowls or 100 teams. Some people have argued that they love watching the bowls, well fine, make lower level bowls (although I'm a bit confused, I thought everyone liked the playoffs better?). There is an irony to the fact that we pretend to care about player safety, but we shrunk the scholarship limits while expanding the number of games. How does that help with safety again? Of course it was just done to provide football welfare, and we've seen a massive influx of FBS programs since the last round of scholarship reductions (something like 30).

    This created a new class of undefeated or teams with stellar records who never actually played anyone decent. It muddied the water a great deal. This year is a good example, as Florida St. has a SoS of 66, Ohio St. was 60, Clemson was 61 and notably Louisville had an SoS of 70 (it was lower before they played Florida).

    I think all you need to do is make a common sense adjustment to scholarship numbers, and you'll solve most of the problems. But, they'd rather have forced parity, confusion, and a playoff...
    I think what it all boils down to is that there are to many teams, 125, to make a playoff feasible in division one FBS football. The NFL has 32 teams and 12 teams make the playoffs, roughly 1/3rd of the teams. I think the ratio is very similar in other pro sports. NCAA basketball has 347 division 1 teams and 68 teams make the tourney, about 20% of the field.

    Compare those percentages to the BCS. 125 schools and 2 teams in the playoff for #1, is 1.6 %! Less that 2%! The 4 team playoff is only 3.2% and an 8 team playoff with that many teams would be just over 6% of all the division 1 teams involved in a playoff which is just flat out unsatisfactory for the majority to accept especially with all the variables between conferences and strength of schedules. Its just to little of a sample to know for sure who really is the best team in the nation a lot of years.

    Thats why i say what we had before the BCS was just as reliable in crowning a champion as the BCS and the upcoming 4 team playoff will be. It was called the eye test for the most part by the media polls and those who follow college football for a living. Were their agendas? Yes just as many claim there are now. And basically its the same eye test as to who is the best and gets in the BCS which is just a fancy name to make sure we have a 1 vs 2 whether those two teams really are the best or not. Nothing new really.

    Just take the last three national championships Bama has won and lets see if the old way would have cost Bama. In '09 Bama ended the season ranked #1 in the AP and Coaches poll. In the old day Bama would have went to the Sugar bowl and played probably another top 10 team but not Texas, as Texas would have went to their conferences affiliated bowl. Chances are I would say would have been very high Bama would have won against whoever they played that year so nothing would have changed even if Texas had won their bowl. So '09 would have been safe in my opinion.

    Then comes '11. LSU finished #1 in both polls and Bama #2. The Sugar would have been contracted to take LSU the SEC champ, and I believe would have taken Bama as LSU's opponent. The rematch would have been enticing especially how close the teams played and having a #1 vs #2 for all the marbles would have been just to enticing to pass up. They did it in '92 and even in '73, and there are others, Georgia and ND in 80 or 81 I believe. So '11 would have been safe in my opinion.

    Now comes '12. Notre Dame finishes #1 and Bama #2. Bama would have went to the Sugar as the SEC champion, The Sugar would have undoubtedly sought Notre Dame for the match up of #1 and #2 and Notre Dame would have been chicken not to accept the challenge as they have no bowl alliance as the other conference champions do. Remember without the BCS there is no pecking order of who gets to pick first scenario, its conference alliances with bowls and the bowls and teams decision as to who they play. I believe the '12 championship would have been safe.

    So in retrospect all the BCS has done is ruin for the most part the major New Years day bowls that we used to look forward to in anticipation unlike anything we have now except for the national championship game.

    Now if we could scale down the division 1 teams to say 60 or 70 depending on 14 team vs 12 team conferences with 5 conferences, the 8 team playoff, which is supported by Steve Spurrior and most likely coach Saban in this scenario would be a little more realistic than what we have now and in the near future to determine a champion. With 60 teams and 8 playoff teams that would be 13% involved and with 70 teams 11%. Those percentages are a lot closer to the current NCAA basketball tourney numbers wise and while not ideal, if you got to have a division 1 football playoff much more acceptable in my mind.

    The New Years day bowl games would mean so much more than today, and the money would be enormous. Would it be tough on the eventual champion having to play 3 games in three weeks? Yes but it should be that way to crown a true champion. Upsets happen, Teams gel late in the season and teams falter down the stretch. Is it fair to the kids involved in such a playoff scenario? Go ask them if they would like the chance!

    In reality though a playoff is not what makes division 1 FBS football great and never will. Its the campus game day atmosphere and the pageantry of it all. It was truly a great game before the BCS! I wish the 4 team playoff was not coming, but since it is, I predict Bama, at least while coach Saban is here will benefit to the horror and dismay of the rest of the nation. ROLL TIDE ROLL!!!

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