View Poll Results: Should we disavow the 1941 Championship?

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  • Yes

    43 29.05%
  • No - It is history, just leave it

    62 41.89%
  • No - It is legit

    19 12.84%
  • Don't care

    24 16.22%
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  1. #66
    BamaNation All-SEC GP for Bama's Avatar
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    Re: Should we disavow the 1941 Championship?

    I have a friend that is a LSU fan who started in on how we claim so many national championships.....
    I told him that I sometimes question the one where we have two losses. Then I told him we would drop our 1941 championship if they drop their 2007 two loss championship.
    I also told him that I sometime question one of Bear's championships since it was only the coaches poll and not the AP poll. Then I told him we would drop our 1973 coaches poll (non-AP poll) championship if they drop their 2003 Coaches poll (non AP poll) championship.
    That still leaves Bama with 12 National Championships, but only leaves LSU with one.

    .......He dropped the subject....
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  3. #67

    Re: Should we disavow the 1941 Championship?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alasippi View Post
    I respectfully do not agree at all. The way they did it back then wasn't the way they do it now but that doesn't mean that, at the time, it was wrong. That would be like asking Army and the Notre Dame Rockne teams to give up the titles they earned back then as well and that's just not good for college football history and tradition.
    I don't know the specifics, but I'm guessing there were certain publications/organizations that were more/less credible in handing out the national titles back then. I'm pretty sure a lot of schools, Alabama included, are willing to "claim" national titles even if they were handed out by some no-name publications/organizations and that's where it gets kind of weird.

  4. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALA2262 View Post
    ONE (Wayne Atcheson) man took ONE (Deke Houlgate) man's word for it.
    There is a list of what is considered to be Major Selectors of CFB National Championships, and Houlgate is on that list, along with several others. There are many more selectors that are not considered Major Selectors, so the notion that Atcheson took some random guy's word for it is wrong. Now, I do feel like it is a questionable championship, but the history of CFB is littered with questionable champions. Living as close as I do to the butthole of the universe, I've heard this question a million times. I was asked last how I felt about "backing into" another BCSNCG if I "felt right" about claiming all those NC's. My standard response to this is always "I'll tell you what - we'll keep winning them - and I'll let you keep up with them. How about that?" In 20 years of saying this, I've never got more than a "Ha Ha Ha" or "Yeah right" Or something like that. That can't even concoct a semblance of an argument for it. The only thing I heard was (during the Dubose, Price, Shula days) was "I bet you won't win another one!" but that isn't a problem these days!

  5. #69
    BamaNation Hall of Fame TideFan in AU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GP for Bama View Post
    I have a friend that is a LSU fan who started in on how we claim so many national championships.....
    I told him that I sometimes question the one where we have two losses. Then I told him we would drop our 1941 championship if they drop their 2007 two loss championship.
    I also told him that I sometime question one of Bear's championships since it was only the coaches poll and not the AP poll. Then I told him we would drop our 1973 coaches poll (non-AP poll) championship if they drop their 2003 Coaches poll (non AP poll) championship.
    That still leaves Bama with 12 National Championships, but only leaves LSU with one.

    .......He dropped the subject....
    I wish someone would ask CNS if his 2003 NC is bogus because it is not an AP NC! -lol

  6. #70
    Suspended JIB's Avatar
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    Re: Should we disavow the 1941 Championship?

    Bama was AP #20 that year and was behind 4 other SEC schools (including both Mississippi Schools). I don't know that Houlgate is, but I don't think it's very legit.

    That said, Bama could easily claim 1945, 1966 and 1977.

    We know about 1966 and 1977.

    In 1945 Bama was undefeated and beat #11 USC in the Rose Bowl 34-14. Bama also beat 3 other teams that finished the year ranked. Army, who was given the title, was more dominant on the scoreboard, but of course that's not always meaningful.

    So that 1941 title is sketchy, but since we got hosed in other years we'll call it a draw. That 1941 team, though, is probably not even in the top 25 best Bama teams ever.
    Last edited by JIB; December 13th, 2012 at 12:02 PM.

  7. #71
    BamaNation First Team Bruce014's Avatar
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    Re: Should we disavow the 1941 Championship?

    The NCAA should have the guts to make FBS national championships official.

    For better or worse they are the governing body of college football.

  8. #72
    BamaNation All-American ALA2262's Avatar
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    Re: Should we disavow the 1941 Championship?

    Quote Originally Posted by TideFan in AU View Post
    There is a list of what is considered to be Major Selectors of CFB National Championships, and Houlgate is on that list, along with several others. There are many more selectors that are not considered Major Selectors, so the notion that Atcheson took some random guy's word for it is wrong. Now, I do feel like it is a questionable championship, but the history of CFB is littered with questionable champions. Living as close as I do to the butthole of the universe, I've heard this question a million times. I was asked last how I felt about "backing into" another BCSNCG if I "felt right" about claiming all those NC's. My standard response to this is always "I'll tell you what - we'll keep winning them - and I'll let you keep up with them. How about that?" In 20 years of saying this, I've never got more than a "Ha Ha Ha" or "Yeah right" Or something like that. That can't even concoct a semblance of an argument for it. The only thing I heard was (during the Dubose, Price, Shula days) was "I bet you won't win another one!" but that isn't a problem these days!
    I do not have the notion that Deke Houlgate was some random guy. Quite the contrary. It is more like Atcheson was considering Deke a 'Know better than anyone else God'.

  9. #73
    BamaNation All-American ALA2262's Avatar
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    Re: Should we disavow the 1941 Championship?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tide1986 View Post
    Well, I guess real football didn't begin until after WWII. I need to give Daniel Moore a call and get my money back on that "Century of Champions" print that I bought back in January 1993.
    The subject is 1941. Period. If anyone has said anything about before or after, as you have, that date, then they were, as you are, off subject.

  10. #74
    BamaNation All-SEC Perrett4Bama's Avatar
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    Re: Should we disavow the 1941 Championship?

    No....but we should claim others.....
    "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Genesis 1:1

  11. #75
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    Re: Should we disavow the 1941 Championship?

    I researched this some after asking a question about the '41 team relative to the '45 team.

    The 1945 Crimson Tide beat 4 top 20 teams in dominant fashion (#14 Tennessee, #15 LSU, #18 Georgia, #11 Southern Cal). They outscored their opponents 430 to 80. The 1941 team was shutout by Mississippi State (SEC Champion) and a middle-tier Vanderbilt team. They beat a Texas A&M team in the Cotton Bowl which rose to #2 prior to losing to the Longhorns in the last week of the regular season. TAMU finished 9th in the AP. They didn't win the SEC, they didn't take out the AP #1 in their bowl...so "highlander rules" on a title aren't legitimate.

    Quite simply, it is apparent the claim to the 1941 title is to make up for the 1945 title which has a more legitimate claim but risks seeming un-American given the post-war zeal following the official end of World War II right before the 1945 season started. If that was Notre Dame and Michigan above us in 1945...we'd be flying a 1945 banner. Instead, it was the two Service Academies and we aren't going to touch that with a 10-foot pole.

  12. #76
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tide1986's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALA2262 View Post
    The subject is 1941. Period. If anyone has said anything about before or after, as you have, that date, then they were, as you are, off subject.
    I do believe that the validity of the selectors that existed during the early days of college football is at issue in this thread.

  13. #77
    BamaNation All-American banjeaux's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting 2004 TF thread on topic & Houlgate explanation video

    Quote Originally Posted by ALA2262 View Post
    I do not have the notion that Deke Houlgate was some random guy. Quite the contrary. It is more like Atcheson was considering Deke a 'Know better than anyone else God'.
    Indeed, Houlgate was not some random guy, as illustrated in the 2004 quote by TideTiger2005, below. He was considered a legitimate authority, in 1941. Mr. Houlgate's mathematical system, as explained by his grandson in below linked video, is easily understood by all with basic arithmetic skills. It is a fact, all sports polls - AP, UP, INS, UPI, etc. - have had bias. Bama's Missing Ring for 1966 is a prime example of bias, likely due to the state's racial turmoil. So, IMO, Houlgate is just as legit as AP. Period!

    2 QUOTES FROM 2004 TIDEFANS THREAD:
    Quote Originally Posted by TideTiger2005 View Post
    In 1941, the Houlgate Index System (published by Illustrated Football and the Football Thesaurus) was a much more respected selector of the National Championship than even the AP poll, which was only in it's 5th year of picking the National Champion for college football.

    The reason Alabama selects this one as a National Championship is because the NCAA recognizes this one as a National Championship with Houlgate being a respected selector.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bamalaw92 View Post
    Not to mention that we didn't even finish first in the SEC that year (4 teams had better records). The reason, however, was that this was our ranking by Houlgate which was, at the time, the predominate ranking service (the AP had only been in existence for 5 years) The "NCAA Football Records Book" lists Alabama as the recipient of the national title under the Houlgate System in 1941. Houlgate's system was the very first systematic approach to determining a national champion in college football history. It predated the next oldest system, devised by Dick Dunkel, by two years, and predated the AP poll by a decade. It was carried by The Football Thesaurus and Football Illustrated from coast to coast for thirty-two years. It is currently recognized not only by the NCAA, but also by most prestigious college football historians, publications and databases, including Sports Illustrated and the Internet-based College Football Data Warehouse and WAJL10. Moreover, the Houlgate system's national championships are recognized by many of the top programs in college football, including Notre Dame, Southern Cal, Tennessee and Georgia. Apart from Houlgate's validity it is very possible that Alabama was the best team in the country in 1941 whether Houlgate had recognized it or not. Alabama in 1941 played, and BEAT, more of the teams in the final AP poll than any other team.
    Quote Originally Posted by ALA2262 View Post
    The subject is 1941. Period. If anyone has said anything about before or after, as you have, that date, then they were, as you are, off subject.

    BASED ON RECENT POSTS, APPARENTLY OVERLOOKED IS MY POST #38 IN THIS THREAD, FROM LAST NIGHT WHICH FOLLOWS:

    Quote Originally Posted by banjeaux View Post
    ALA2262, Deke Houlgate had credentials, which were recognized by many in 1941 and prior. In the linked video, below in this thread, Houlgate's grandson explains this system of ranking. It makes good sense to me. Likely, it will make sense to others, after watching the video.


    I say keep 1941. Plus, add 1966 & a few others. ROLL TIDE!

    Link to 2004 thread, which explains Houlgate very well. Those who want context will click & read.

    http://www.tidefans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19012




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  14. #78
    BamaNation Hall of Fame CapstoneGrad06's Avatar
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    Re: Should we disavow the 1941 Championship?

    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonaudio View Post
    Quoted for truth.

    Threads like this make me wonder about some of the 'fans' here...
    What's the point in challenging someone's fanhood over a discussion? This is a legitimate question, in my opinion. The continued claim of 1941 makes it harder to justify the other "non-poll titles" from the 1920s and 1930s.
    "Each play has a history and a life of its own. How is that play going to be remembered? If you're focusing on that play and what you have to do that single play, usually you'll do pretty good on it." - Coach Nick Saban

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