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  1. #27
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    Quote Originally Posted by jagvocate View Post
    Football is always evolving, always progressing. Everyone is looking for an edge to help them.

    I read an interesting article about the spread offense with a QB who can throw well and run well (like Manziel, but there are others). The author's point was this: these dual weapon QBs have moved the audible forward in time, to include during the play.

    The old audible was come to the line, get your read, and change the play as necessary. With the mobile QB and blocking WRs, it is come to the line, change the play if necessary, snap the ball, drop back, read the defense again, and change the play again (from a pass to a run), with the WRs and linemen adjusting on the fly. A real-time audible if you will, during the play.

    that is what made newton so dangerous. although, it will be interesting to see if it can be done successfully two years in a row in the SEC.
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  3. #28
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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondDust View Post
    Neither can the American sports public.
    Good point

  4. #29
    FB Moderator Bamabuzzard's Avatar
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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    Let's be honest here. The "spread" in and of itself isn't what gives most teams problems. It is the hyper pace in which plays are run. I've watched Clemson, Oregon, La Tech, aTm and other fast tempo offenses. A big element of the success for these type offenses is running "the next play" so quick that the defense is regulated to playing sandlot defense.

    There is no time to not only substitute but to even make any defensive adjustments. All the defense has time to do is get ready for the snap. So defensive strategy is all but eliminated once these offenses get into a fast tempo flow of playcalling.

    Look, I am tickled Crimson that aTm joined the SEC. I think it was a great move for both the conference and aTm. But if anyone thinks that aTm's offensive success was due more to scheme and how great a coach Sumlin is rather than Johnny Football being a special athlete. They might want to go back and watch some of their games again. A lot of their scores and amazing stats came from broken plays. Plays that aren't drawn up in the playbook. Broken plays that the majority of qb's within spread offenses would not make. But Johnny Football is a special athlete. Trust me, aTm doesn't have another one waiting in the wings.

    But back to the original topic. I've noticed when spread offenses don't run at the high tempo pace they're no where as successful. To me that is where the success comes from. We could do the same thing with our offense. Just huddle back up, allow AJ to call from a series of plays, and run play after play after play. It would have the same effect. But the drawback is it does't allow your defense time to rest.
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  5. #30
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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    I remember when the wildcat was called a gimmick.

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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    I don't believe in gimmick offenses in the abstract: there are simply offenses that work and offenses that don't. Even Malzahn's scheme is predicated on traditional run concepts and passing patterns. He just brings a lot of formation multiples, motions, and reverse actions into all his plays. I don't think it is a gimmick that he calls a bunch of simple things, gets you outflanked, then pops you with some gadget play. Malzahn is running the offensive equivalent to Saban's defense. It's deceptive, overwhelms the opponent with a lot of stuff going on pre-snap and at the snap, but it is rooted in simple things that always win.

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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    Quote Originally Posted by BamaMTA06 View Post
    I remember when the wildcat was called a gimmick.
    It is so much a gimmick that every team has it in their offense and it is practically useless now for us to use because every defense is prepared to alert against it now. There aren't opportunities to pull a 2009 South Carolina deal with that formation. We've basically only ran the wildcat to do a trick play the last three seasons and at that point it's not even worth using because the book will be "expect a gadget play when Alabama goes wildcat." Unsurprisingly, we haven't run it hardly any since the Maze to Williams INT in the 2011 LSU game. Of course I think having a great QB probably makes the staff think it is stupid to take McCarron off the snap.

  8. #33
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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    Quote Originally Posted by rgw View Post
    It is so much a gimmick that every team has it in their offense and it is practically useless now for us to use because every defense is prepared to alert against it now. There aren't opportunities to pull a 2009 South Carolina deal with that formation. We've basically only ran the wildcat to do a trick play the last three seasons and at that point it's not even worth using because the book will be "expect a gadget play when Alabama goes wildcat." Unsurprisingly, we haven't run it hardly any since the Maze to Williams INT in the 2011 LSU game. Of course I think having a great QB probably makes the staff think it is stupid to take McCarron off the snap.
    BINGO!!!!
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  9. #34
    BamaNation All-American KrAzY3's Avatar
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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamabuzzard View Post
    But the drawback is it does't allow your defense time to rest.
    I think there's more to it than that. Your sandlot reference and points about Johnny are on point. I explained it to a few people as turning it into a game of street ball. You took away a lot of the preparation and then you just let Johnny innovate.

    The thing is, it breeds sloppiness, and there are a lot of built in weaknesses. Johnny was usually remarkable, but he had bad games and in those games they created costly mistakes. We celebrate the near fumble that became a touchdown, but it was still a near fumble. Those sorts of things are more commonplace in that type of offense. Also, if you don't have that type of an athlete, you are putting yourself at a bigger disadvantage because now you're playing sandlot and the better athletes are on the other side of the ball.

    I could have used a different term than gimmick, but I do believe it's a gimmick and I didn't want to get too much into talking about hurry up, spread, blur, no huddle, etc... I was there for the A&M game and I had a good seat. On TV you couldn't see the players struggling to get off the field and set as often because of the way they shoot it. But, the players were struggling to do that every single play. Why? Because the offense was something they were not used to. They adjusted as the game went on, and A&M accounted for 9 points in three quarters, hardly an unstoppable force. If you are used to it and prepared for it, I do believe it becomes easier to stop than a fundamentally sound offense (which would explain both A&M and Oregon being held to a lower point total than Alabama). The issue lies in the fact that it's not common enough yet to warrant much preparation and for people to get used to it.

    To reiterate though, I'm not blaming Oregon, A&M, etc... for running it, I'm just saying because it sometimes produces spectacular results does not make them better teams than Alabama, Notre Dame, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by BamaMTA06 View Post
    I remember when the wildcat was called a gimmick.
    I think that's a perfect example though. It was big for a while, and some teams used it to great success. We've seen less of it lately, and it hasn't been as successful. Does anyone think Tebow running the wildcat when it first hit the NFL would have been held to a rushing average of 3.2? Teams got used to it and adjusted.
    Last edited by KrAzY3; January 9th, 2013 at 10:52 AM.

  10. #35
    BamaNation First Team marcusroby's Avatar
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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    I know a certain game that will circled on coach's calendar this year with attached mantra "Be Ready for Everything! ". The "talking heads" are talk that matchup to no end.

  11. #36
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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    Quote Originally Posted by KrAzY3 View Post
    I think there's more to it than that. Your sandlot reference and points about Johnny are on point. I explained it to a few people as turning it into a game of street ball. You took away a lot of the preparation and then you just let Johnny innovate.

    The thing is, it breeds sloppiness, and there are a lot of built in weaknesses. Johnny was usually remarkable, but he had bad games and in those games they created costly mistakes. We celebrate the near fumble that became a touchdown, but it was still a near fumble. Those sorts of things are more commonplace in that type of offense. Also, if you don't have that type of an athlete, you are putting yourself at a bigger disadvantage because now you're playing sandlot and the better athletes are on the other side of the ball.
    A lot of aTm's successes on the field were straight up Johnny Football improvises. I can't tell you how many touchdowns runs, passes and big key first down runs were nothing but JF improvises. It doesn't take away from what they did this year nor does it all of a sudden make them "inferior". But everything needs to be viewed in some form of context and when watching JF you quickly realize he brings a special skill set to the table than most qb's that are recruited for that type offense.
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  12. #37
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    Quote Originally Posted by KrAzY3 View Post
    I think there's more to it than that. Your sandlot reference and points about Johnny are on point. I explained it to a few people as turning it into a game of street ball. You took away a lot of the preparation and then you just let Johnny innovate.

    The thing is, it breeds sloppiness, and there are a lot of built in weaknesses. Johnny was usually remarkable, but he had bad games and in those games they created costly mistakes. We celebrate the near fumble that became a touchdown, but it was still a near fumble. Those sorts of things are more commonplace in that type of offense. Also, if you don't have that type of an athlete, you are putting yourself at a bigger disadvantage because now you're playing sandlot and the better athletes are on the other side of the ball.

    I could have used a different term than gimmick, but I do believe it's a gimmick and I didn't want to get too much into talking about hurry up, spread, blur, no huddle, etc... I was there for the A&M game and I had a good seat. On TV you couldn't see the players struggling to get off the field and set as often because of the way they shoot it. But, the players were struggling to do that every single play. Why? Because the offense was something they were not used to. They adjusted as the game went on, and A&M accounted for 9 points in three quarters, hardly an unstoppable force. If you are used to it and prepared for it, I do believe it becomes easier to stop than a fundamentally sound offense (which would explain both A&M and Oregon being held to a lower point total than Alabama). The issue lies in the fact that it's not common enough yet to warrant much preparation and for people to get used to it.

    To reiterate though, I'm not blaming Oregon, A&M, etc... for running it, I'm just saying because it sometimes produces spectacular results does not make them better teams than Alabama, Notre Dame, etc...


    I think that's a perfect example though. It was big for a while, and some teams used it to great success. We've seen less of it lately, and it hasn't been as successful. Does anyone think Tebow running the wildcat when it first hit the NFL would have been held to a rushing average of 3.2? Teams got used to it and adjusted.
    the t a and m game this past year was almost identical to what happened to us in auburn in 2009. the trickery/gimmick/sandlot aspect got us on our heels quick, then we settled down and stopped it.

    counting on that for four quarters over and over again is a big risk though, and i think this next year will see a much tougher go of it for a and m as folks will not be surprised by the elusiveness and quickness
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  13. #38
    BamaNation Hall of Fame rizolltizide's Avatar
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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    You lost me at comic books warning you about Catholics.
    RIP Hub

  14. #39
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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamabuzzard View Post
    A lot of aTm's successes on the field were straight up Johnny Football improvises. I can't tell you how many touchdowns runs, passes and big key first down runs were nothing but JF improvises. It doesn't take away from what they did this year nor does it all of a sudden make them "inferior". But everything needs to be viewed in some form of context and when watching JF you quickly realize he brings a special skill set to the table than most qb's that are recruited for that type offense.
    agreed, and i don't think that a system based so much on one player will have long term success in the SEC (wrt getting to and winning championships). this is in no way taking away from the freak show abilities of JM.
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