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  1. #53
    FB Moderator Bamabuzzard's Avatar
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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    Quote Originally Posted by 257WBY View Post
    Ask TAMU and Baylor how things were before the offense got there. Oregon lost the same number of games Alabama did. Any team can have a bad day. Any offense would've been better than the crap ND put out there.
    Oh, no doubt. This type offense makes the game more "entertaining" for the main stream video game fan. But the offense in and of itself isn't any superior than what any non spread team runs. It has it's pro's and con's as well. Coaches and players make an offense successful or not. Not the other way around. And I think this is the mindset of a lot of people propping up offenses like Oregon's. That this type of offense is superior and dominant to other offenses.......and it's not. That you can plug a 90 year old man in a wheel chair at quarterback into this type offense and he'll be preparing his Heisman speech for the end of the season. It has it's flaws and it is not an unstoppable offense.

    Again, IMO, the key to its success lies more in the tempo than scheme. Which tempo can be added to any offense. The greatest advantage(s) are created by running each play within 13 seconds or less of each other. Which is an actual goal of a high tempo offense. Any play that it takes longer than 13 seconds to get off reduces the likelihood of the play being successful.

    The downside of this type offense is they produce bad defenses. Having a bad defense is just as fatal as having a bad offense. However, in our video game fan's mind they pay no attention to that. As long as the team's offense can look flashy and put up 50+ pts a game then overall they are a "great" team. But flip the tables and let a team be great on defense and have a subpar offense and that team is overall deemed "bad". Anybody remember 1992? I can use a more recent example of LSU dominating Oregon two years ago when they had that vaunted, "unstoppable" offense. Then again this season when Stanford, who runs more of an SEC style defense than anybody in the PAC 12, holds them to what, 14 pts? LSU forced Johnny Football into two int's and suppressed him pretty good. It took us one quarter of finally waking up to make the adjustments to hold them to eight pts the rest of the game. It's not the greatest thing since sliced bread.
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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    Quote Originally Posted by KrAzY3 View Post
    They messed me up as a child...
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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    I'm sure Stanford fans are looking at all of the attention Oregon is getting and thinking to themselves "hey guys... WE were Pac-12 champions! WE beat Oregon on the road. WE won the Rose Bowl." And I wouldn't blame them for that.

  5. #56
    FB Moderator Bamabuzzard's Avatar
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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    Quote Originally Posted by MizzouMike View Post
    I'm sure Stanford fans are looking at all of the attention Oregon is getting and thinking to themselves "hey guys... WE were Pac-12 champions! WE beat Oregon on the road. WE won the Rose Bowl." And I wouldn't blame them for that.
    It's because a lot of college football fans are video game fans. They relate greatness to offensive fire power. Defense is just an element of the game that must exist to showcase the offense. Yet more times than not teams like Stanford, Alabama, LSU, Florida etc. who actually put just as much stock in a defense as they do an offense. Seem to rise to the top more than the teams who view defense as a necessary evil.
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  6. #57
    Suspended Dallas4Bama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jagvocate View Post
    Football is always evolving, always progressing. Everyone is looking for an edge to help them.

    I read an interesting article about the spread offense with a QB who can throw well and run well (like Manziel, but there are others). The author's point was this: these dual weapon QBs have moved the audible forward in time, to include during the play.

    The old audible was come to the line, QB reads the defense, and changes the play as necessary, snap the ball, go.

    With the mobile QB and blocking (important skill here) WRs, it is come to the line, change the play if necessary, snap the ball, drop back, read the defense again, and change the play again (from a pass to a run), with the WRs and linemen adjusting responsibilities on the fly.

    A real-time audible if you will, during the play.
    Call it what you will, but its just plain old scrambling. It isn't taught and its not anything the coaches call. When you have a Michael Vick, Can Newton or Johnny Manziel it works well. A&M beat Alabama by doing things unconventionally. When the play broke down JM scrambled around long enough to find someone open. Call it real-time audible if you want but its chaos and anyone who tells you it isn't is lying.

    Krazy has a good point because without that every once in a while scrambling talent the offense doesn't work. Unlike a more traditional offense like Alabama who can continue to plug players in and stay consistent. It's the difference in having a few good years and building a machine.

    I'm not knocking A&M, I was a big advocate of them joining the conference and I have lots of aggies friends. I also don't think anyone in the country deserved the heisman more than Manziel. However, look at the success of the programs with super dual threat QB's after they graduated. The programs after McCoy, Vick, Tebow and Newton left all had to transition back to a more traditional style play.
    Last edited by Dallas4Bama; January 9th, 2013 at 02:00 PM.

  7. #58
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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas4Bama View Post
    Call it what you will, but its just plain old scrambling. It isn't taught and its not anything the coaches call. When you have a Michael Vick, Can Newton or Johnny Manziel it works well. A&M beat Alabama by doing things unconventionally. When the play broke down JM scrambled around long enough to find someone open. Call it real-time audible if you want but its chaos and anyone who tells you it isn't is lying.

    Krazy has a good point because without that every once in a while scrambling talent the offense doesn't work. Unlike a more traditional offense like Alabama who can continue to plug players in and stay consistent. It's the difference in having a few good years and building a machine.

    I'm not knocking A&M, I was a big advocate of them joining the conference and I have lots of aggies friends. I also don't think anyone in the country deserved the heisman more than Manziel. However, look at the success of the programs with super dual threat QB's after they graduated.
    The programs after McCoy, Vick, Tebow and Newton left all had to transition back to a more traditional style play.
    End of discussion ^^^^
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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas4Bama View Post
    Call it what you will, but its just plain old scrambling. It isn't taught and its not anything the coaches call. When you have a Michael Vick, Can Newton or Johnny Manziel it works well. A&M beat Alabama by doing things unconventionally. When the play broke down JM scrambled around long enough to find someone open. Call it real-time audible if you want but its caos and anyone who tells you it isn't is lying. .

    Krazy's point holds true because without that every once in a while scrambling talent the offense doesn't work. Unlike a more traditional offense like Alabama who can continue to plug players in and stay consistent.

    I'm not knocking A&M, I was a big advocate of them joining the conference and I have lots of aggies friends. I also don't think anyone in the country deserved the heisman more than Manziel. However, look at the success of the programs with super dual threat QB's after they graduated. The programs after McCoy, Vick, Tebow and Newton left all had to transition back to a more traditional style play.
    that is a true fact...the type of offense that is run in a spread is VERY dependant on a specific type of player, and the better the players are, the better that type of offense will work...
    Cam newtons only come around once in a lifetime, but the spread can be very successful with the right coaching and players. But, no offense is unstoppable withg the right scheme, players and coaching.

  9. #60
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas4Bama View Post
    Call it what you will, but its just plain old scrambling. It isn't taught and its not anything the coaches call. When you have a Michael Vick, Can Newton or Johnny Manziel it works well. A&M beat Alabama by doing things unconventionally. When the play broke down JM scrambled around long enough to find someone open. Call it real-time audible if you want but its chaos and anyone who tells you it isn't is lying.

    Krazy has a good point because without that every once in a while scrambling talent the offense doesn't work. Unlike a more traditional offense like Alabama who can continue to plug players in and stay consistent. It's the difference in having a few good years and building a machine.

    I'm not knocking A&M, I was a big advocate of them joining the conference and I have lots of aggies friends. I also don't think anyone in the country deserved the heisman more than Manziel. However, look at the success of the programs with super dual threat QB's after they graduated. The programs after McCoy, Vick, Tebow and Newton left all had to transition back to a more traditional style play.

    you may want to add boston college after doug flutie, and didn't BYU do a stint with a scrambler back in the 80s?
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  10. #61
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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    Quote Originally Posted by bamafaninOhiO View Post
    that is a true fact...the type of offense that is run in a spread is VERY dependant on a specific type of player, and the better the players are, the better that type of offense will work...
    Cam newtons only come around once in a lifetime, but the spread can be very successful with the right coaching and players. But, no offense is unstoppable withg the right scheme, players and coaching.
    Personally, that is the reason I think teams who cannot find that "special type" player, on the Manziel, Newton, Tebow level. Will actually have a harder time consistently staying on top.
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  11. #62
    BamaNation First Team AgentAntiOrange's Avatar
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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    Quote Originally Posted by KrAzY3 View Post

    I am tired of people acting like Oregon and Chip Kelly are some magical team............

    ....Alabama was that great.
    I agree 100%. For all the talk about football evolving and everyone looking for innovative offenses, the same thing wins football games today that it always has. Run the ball, stop the run. Period. Oregon may well get a NC at some point. But if you want to have sustained, prolonged success then you better be able to control the clock and get defensive stops. These offensive were born out of the need to compensate for a lack of talent and as defenses have learned how to beat them they have become a hindrance rather than a help vs the better defensive teams.
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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamabuzzard View Post
    Personally, that is the reason I think teams who cannot find that "special type" player, on the Manziel, Newton, Tebow level. Will actually have a harder time consistently staying on top.
    You are correct, but they are not Alabama and will take the short term success along with a shot at a championship even if it means 10 years wandering in the desert afterward. Now I am depressed.

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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas4Bama View Post
    Call it what you will, but its just plain old scrambling. It isn't taught and its not anything the coaches call. When you have a Michael Vick, Can Newton or Johnny Manziel it works well. A&M beat Alabama by doing things unconventionally. When the play broke down JM scrambled around long enough to find someone open. Call it real-time audible if you want but its chaos and anyone who tells you it isn't is lying.

    Krazy has a good point because without that every once in a while scrambling talent the offense doesn't work. Unlike a more traditional offense like Alabama who can continue to plug players in and stay consistent. It's the difference in having a few good years and building a machine.

    I'm not knocking A&M, I was a big advocate of them joining the conference and I have lots of aggies friends. I also don't think anyone in the country deserved the heisman more than Manziel. However, look at the success of the programs with super dual threat QB's after they graduated. The programs after McCoy, Vick, Tebow and Newton left all had to transition back to a more traditional style play.
    Texas went to an SEC style offense after McCoy and haven't been the same sense. Tebow followed Leak for a NC. Baylor plugged in the next QB and he only broke RGIIIs season yardage record. Oregon has run several QBs and they just keep on winning. Texas Tech had about four QBs that put up huge numbers and won ball games. It only ended when Craig James ran the coach off.

  14. #65
    BamaNation All-American KrAzY3's Avatar
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    Re: Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

    Quote Originally Posted by bamafaninOhiO View Post
    that is a true fact...the type of offense that is run in a spread is VERY dependant on a specific type of player, and the better the players are, the better that type of offense will work...
    I think this gets into what Chip Kelly is probably best at. He is very good at identifying talent that works with his system. That's probably his greatest asset. He had Johnny committed to come play for him. Think about that, a lot of people say they didn't know he'd be that good, but I guess Chip saw it. I think that's what has kept things going for Oregon at this level. As to other programs, I don't think we have a real example of maintaining that level of success after players leave. It also means that Chip can focus on players that other schools don't want as much since he needs a specific type.

    We can look at a school that produced mediocre records and say oh hey, they're offense still has been good in this system over the years, but has the team actually been that good? That's the question and in that regard Oregon is really the only good example I can think of.

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