Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

AggieMom said:

Wasn't trying to pick a fight -- just thought accuracy was important. Sorry if I offended.
I'm sure that not playing 9 games straight (the last 2 on the road) with no bye week, might help aTm as well. Actually I think aTm having 2 tuneup games before Al comes to town may be as important as Al having a bye week before. Sumlin appears to know how to get his team ready for straight games even away games as shown by this past seasons run. I guess we will have to wait til September to find out.

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Here's the thing, this is a very reasonable bunch of folks here (with a few exceptions) and no one is trying to discount the successful season A&M had or Manziel. The observations that are being offered here are based on what we've seen historically. Abarn for instance hired a new coach who brought in an offensive guru to run his spread offense. It did ok, but was made almost unstoppable with an amazingly gifted ahtlete running it. Their staff got raises, promotions and contract extensions. Said player goes pro and two years later they win 3 games, coaching staff gets fired and no one can figure out why. It wasn't the coaching staff, it wasn't the system, it was the system and this amazing athlete together. Take either out of the equation and you've got a mid tear SEC team.

I think that's where a lot of the views from this side of the table come from. A team like that can have some great years when they have the right player in position, but they can't maintain it year in and year out because those type players don't come around all the time. Please don't point to teams outside the SEC as examples because that really doesn't apply because we're talking about the SEC. We're talking about real big boy football.

We'll have something for Johnny Fottball come next Sept. I can't wait for the game, it should be a great one. RTR

Dallas4Bama said:

Here's the thing, this is a very reasonable bunch of folks here (with a few exceptions) and no one is trying to discount the successful season A&M had or Manziel. The observations that are being offered here are based on what we've seen historically. Abarn for instance hired a new coach who brought in an offensive guru to run his spread offense. It did ok, but was made almost unstoppable with an amazingly gifted ahtlete running it. Their staff got raises, promotions and contract extensions. Said player goes pro and two years later they win 3 games, coaching staff gets fired and no one can figure out why. It wasn't the coaching staff, it wasn't the system, it was the system and this amazing athlete together. Take either out of the equation and you've got a mid tear SEC team.

I think that's where a lot of the views from this side of the table come from. A team like that can have some great years when they have the right player in position, but they can't maintain it year in and year out because those type players don't come around all the time. Please don't point to teams outside the SEC as examples because that really doesn't apply because we're talking about the SEC. We're talking about real big boy football.

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Well you can count me as one who never bought into the Chizic love. I knew his record coming from Iowa State, a team that was never even mid level in the Big 12. I was able to see that it was all Cam and their coach was mediocre at best.

While I understand that Johnny is a special player and probably was a difference maker in several games, I also am familiar enough with the other players and coaches to know that contrary to the media spin, this was a solid team with solid coaching staff. Snyder is an excellent DC and was able to put defensive schemes that kept a generally overmatched defensive group competitive. Hopefully recruiting in the next couple of years will level the field. It was well known that Sherman was an OL recruiting guru leading to our very good OL play. Fortunately, we are losing only one sr and Joeckel, so should be in good shape. Unlike Chizic, Sumlin has a very good resume having been very successfully at UH as well as solid work on a number of other successful programs. Quite frankly Sumlin doesn't appear to bear much resemblance to Chizic.

To the people who have brought up the ole miss game and the 57 pts given up to La Tech, those were 2 games where aTm had let downs, one on the offensive side with SIX? Turnovers in one and a defensive meltdown in the other. It is noteworthy that they found a way to win both games.

One thing that I am not sure is understood here, is that Sumlin is having stellar recruiting in a state that is known for producing some of the best hs players in the country. UT is shaking in their boots because they have given up their recruiting crown. The realization that aTm is also far superior to Mack brown and co in developing players will have lasting impact on future recruiting classes.

Dallas4Bama said:

Here's the thing, this is a very reasonable bunch of folks here (with a few exceptions) and no one is trying to discount the successful season A&M had or Manziel. The observations that are being offered here are based on what we've seen historically. Abarn for instance hired a new coach who brought in an offensive guru to run his spread offense. It did ok, but was made almost unstoppable with an amazingly gifted ahtlete running it. Their staff got raises, promotions and contract extensions. Said player goes pro and two years later they win 3 games, coaching staff gets fired and no one can figure out why. It wasn't the coaching staff, it wasn't the system, it was the system and this amazing athlete together. Take either out of the equation and you've got a mid tear SEC team.

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To be fair, Sumlin has proven he can coach and I believe it is unfair to compare him to Chizik.

The jury is still out on aTm long term because I want to see how they play with a bullseye on their chest and how they are able to replace some of their players that are leaving. However, I'll predict they take the perennial #3 spot (or better every few years) on the division leader board.

It's a limited sample size - with his previous stop being a pretty decently setup program (Houston) - but Sumlin has always won. Gene Chizik had very little success at all besides 2010. He might not be the next Bear Bryant but I imagine he's going to win his share in this conference.

Biggest issue next season for A&M is that Alabama is going to have that date circled on the calendar. You don't want to be circled on Alabama's calendar.

Yeah, we get everyone's "circle date" but it hasn't been pretty for anyone circled by us the last few years. It's quite often a rout other than 2011 LSU.

The big thing for TAMU is all that they're replacing on both sides of the ball. They lose 2 safeties, 2 LBs, and 2 DL. I think the youth movement on defense combined with being closer to the hunted rather than hunter is going to lead to a slight slip next season.

MattinBama said:

Biggest issue next season for A&M is that Alabama is going to have that date circled on the calendar. You don't want to be circled on Alabama's calendar.

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Agree totally with this. Not sure how the rest of the team will respond, but Johnny has shown that he has ice water in his veins.

That really is the biggest thing TAMU has going for them. Manziel doesn't seem to get wrapped up in the stage and he can play backyard ball with incredible ease when things break down. Even if his teammates aren't having a good game, as long as the WRs don't drop an absurd number of passes...he can singlehandedly beat teams.

Their offensive line kept him clean but mostly he protected the pocket with his feet as much as his offensive linemen. We pretty much lost to one guy and that is impressive.

rgw said:

Yeah, we get everyone's "circle date" but it hasn't been pretty for anyone circled by us the last few years. It's quite often a rout other than 2011 LSU.

The big thing for TAMU is all that they're replacing on both sides of the ball. They lose 2 safeties, 2 LBs, and 2 DL. I think the youth movement on defense combined with being closer to the hunted rather than hunter is going to lead to a slight slip next season.

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Actually I am less concerned about that than I was before I found out that Matthews is returning. I have faith in Sumlin and particularly Snyder to get the defense ready just like he did this year. The growth of the defense was noteworthy as the season progressed and he will have more time to work with next years group. They already used part of their pre Cotton Bowl practice time to work with the non-starters while Johnny and Luke were on the award circuit.

TheAccountant said:

To be fair, Sumlin has proven he can coach and I believe it is unfair to compare him to Chizik.

The jury is still out on aTm long term because I want to see how they play with a bullseye on their chest and how they are able to replace some of their players that are leaving. However, I'll predict they take the perennial #3 spot (or better every few years) on the division leader board.

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Never compared him to chizik, compared situations with a super athlete. Coaches just are along for the ride with a talent like that. My point is if a super talent like Cam can drag along an idiot like cheez to a NC, why would we not think a talent like Manziel can do it with a good coach. That said, after super athlete leaves it them goes back to coaching and developing players. You can't develop Manziel, all you can do is try to find another one. During your "search" you're an average team because what makes your offense achieve greatness is that super athlete. It's not that hard to see the pattern if your willing to look.

Dallas4Bama said:

Never compared him to chizik, compared situations with a super athlete. Coaches just are along for the ride with a talent like that. My point is if a super talent like Cam can drag along an idiot like cheez to a NC, why would we not think a talent like Manziel can do it with a good coach. That said, after super athlete leaves it them goes back to coaching and developing players. You can't develop Manziel, all you can do is try to find another one. During your "search" you're an average team because what makes your offense achieve greatness is that super athlete. It's not that hard to see the pattern if your willing to look.

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Well, stated that way, it sounds a lot better. Sumlin and staff appear to be doing a great job with recruiting and coaching up the players they already have, but only time will tell. I wouldn't be making the comparisons to auburn after Cam at this point though, but I can understand Alabama's desire to do so.

AggieMom said:

Well, stated that way, it sounds a lot better. Sumlin and staff appear to be doing a great job with recruiting and coaching up the players they already have, but only time will tell. I wouldn't be making the comparisons to auburn after Cam at this point though, but I can understand Alabama's desire to do so.

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Gonna be interesting to see the kid from Sealy play. Not sure what position he ends up playing.

AggieMom said:

Well, stated that way, it sounds a lot better. Sumlin and staff appear to be doing a great job with recruiting and coaching up the players they already have, but only time will tell. I wouldn't be making the comparisons to auburn after Cam at this point though, but I can understand Alabama's desire to do so.

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It's not a desire, its a natural conclusion based on history. Understand I would have the same position if it were Alabama in this position.

It seems the only response that will appease you is that A&M will be unbeatable for the next20 years, win every forseeable national championship and cause every other college football program to shut down. Now that I've said that can the rest of us get back to discussing the longevity of unconventional offense and offenses built around super athletes without you and other aggies taking it personal? It's not personal, its simply off season discussion.

We tend to debate things like this here and it doesn't revolve around just A&M. They are just the newest example we have to examine in our conference. First we discussed FL, than abarn and now A&M.

Dallas4Bama said:

Never compared him to chizik, compared situations with a super athlete. Coaches just are along for the ride with a talent like that. My point is if a super talent like Cam can drag along an idiot like cheez to a NC, why would we not think a talent like Manziel can do it with a good coach. That said, after super athlete leaves it them goes back to coaching and developing players. You can't develop Manziel, all you can do is try to find another one. During your "search" you're an average team because what makes your offense achieve greatness is that super athlete. It's not that hard to see the pattern if your willing to look.

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I think you're a little more sensitive than most regarding aTm and their success since you live out that way. It's understandable.

Although I am an Aggie mom and grand mom, I also have lived in Alabama for almost 15 years so I have some insight into the way Alabamians think. Never meant to come off as a homer for TAMU, but I think I have enough connections still to Texas to realize some things that most Alabamians do not realize and i was just trying to pass on this knowledge.

As far as the "gimmicky" offense, the spread is the offense practiced by the majority of Texas hs programs now, so there are many young qb's with a lot of experience with it. Qb's like Johnny don't come along that often and have an idea that Sumlin will adapt to fit the strengths of the quarterback he has after Johnny. Obviously, Many programs have shown that you don't need a super star qb to win, you just need to work with and develop the strengths of your players. As I have said before, Sumlin has stated before that they strive to have a balance between passing and running plays. Many of Johnny's runs are designed running plays. The fact that he is such a good runner possibly obscures the fact that they were designed running plays, just not by a rb.

There is also a difference between Auburn and TAMU currently. Auburn presently takes 2nd place to Alabama in recruiting, whereas the tables have turned in Texas with many of the highly touted recruits now passing on UT to have a chance to play in the SEC. Also the secret is out that Mack Brown is not that good at evaluating or developing talent.

AggieMom said:

I wouldn't be making the comparisons to auburn after Cam at this point though

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Who then? Oklahoma after Sam Bradford? Their Heisman winning qb led them to a BCSNCG...where they lost, and haven't sniffed one since. Texas after Colt McCoy? Their Heisman runner-up, award winning qb led them to a BCSNCG...where they lost, and are 22-16 in the three seasons since. Baylor after RGIII? Their Heisman winning qb led them to a ten win season...and they were 8-5 this year. Scam won the Heisman and led the Aubs to a National Championship...two years later they win three games and fire their coach.

So while A&M may not do as badly as Auburn, history points toward a downhill trend, and it's not hard to see why some would be skeptical. Can Sumlin and A&M buck the trend? We'll see.

bamadp said:

Who then? Oklahoma after Sam Bradford? Their Heisman winning qb led them to a BCSNCG...where they lost, and haven't sniffed one since. Texas after Colt McCoy? Their Heisman runner-up, award winning qb led them to a BCSNCG...where they lost, and are 22-16 in the three seasons since. Baylor after RGIII? Their Heisman winning qb led them to a ten win season...and they were 8-5 this year. Scam won the Heisman and led the Aubs to a National Championship...two years later they win three games and fire their coach.

So while A&M may not do as badly as Auburn, history points toward a downhill trend, and it's not hard to see why some would be skeptical. Can Sumlin and A&M buck the trend? We'll see.

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The comparison was made to Auburn and Chizik. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there is some let down, just wouldn't expect to be Auburn bad. Never meant to imply anything different. Yes, Baylor had some let down, but Briles is a much better coach than Chizik. Texas still made it to and won a bowl game, even with Mack Brown as coach.