Gimmick offenses (Oregon, Texas A&M, etc...)

bamadp

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Sep 24, 2006
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Sheffield, Al.
As far as the "gimmicky" offense, the spread is the offense practiced by the majority of Texas hs programs now
Therein lies the problem. You've got a bunch of high school players that can throw and catch for a lot of yards and td's, but aren't proficient at blocking and tackling...they don't have to be and are not taught to be. Hmm...I wonder why those schools that recruit mostly these Texas high schoolers have so much trouble when they face a team that blocks and tackles well...could there possibly be a connection? :wink:
 

AggieMom

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Nov 19, 2012
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Huntsville, AL
Therein lies the problem. You've got a bunch of high school players that can throw and catch for a lot of yards and td's, but aren't proficient at blocking and tackling...they don't have to be and are not taught to be. Hmm...I wonder why those schools that recruit mostly these Texas high schoolers have so much trouble when they face a team that blocks and tackles well...could there possibly be a connection? :wink:
There you go again. It seems like aTm was blocking and tackling in the game with Alabama as well as in the Cotton Bowl. Held OU to no pts in 2nd half and just 2 fgs and a td with 2 goal line stands. Did I miss something?
 

TexasBama

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Jan 15, 2000
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Of the 3 broad categories of spread offense, Bama runs two of them - the pistol and the spread option. If we've run four wide this year, then we've run the third.
 

Dallas4Bama

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Sep 27, 2006
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I think you're a little more sensitive than most regarding aTm and their success since you live out that way. It's understandable.
I have been one of the biggest advocates for A&M joining the conference since it was first mentioned years ago. I invested countless hours and keystrokes in debating those who said A&M would not be able to handle the SEC. I don't dislike A&M fans, their program or their school. UT on the other hand is a completely different story. I had to convince many of my A&M buddies that they would take over the state once they moved to the SEC. Now that's happening. So their success actually proves me right.

The only thing I'm interested in here is the debate, without the emotion. That is difficult because some of our A&M posters believe any point made that questions an unconventional offense is questioning their program. I've even tried to change the term to unconventional instead of gimmick because many of them feel its insulting.

Facts are historically the unconventional offense built around a super athlete do very well, but fall off in productivity after that athlete who is the center piece of the offense leaves. That is in contrast to a more conventional offense in which you are able to replace the parts without waiting for another super athlete to be born.
 

bamadp

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Sep 24, 2006
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Sheffield, Al.
There you go again. It seems like aTm was blocking and tackling in the game with Alabama as well as in the Cotton Bowl. Held OU to no pts in 2nd half and just 2 fgs and a td with 2 goal line stands. Did I miss something?
A few points...
A&M got 70% of their points and 40% of their yards in the first quarter. They were out gained 400-250 yds. and out scored 24-9 (and should've been 31-9) the final three...but they hung on to win and are to be congratulated for that. As for the Cotton Bowl, I wouldn't consider OU as a measuring stick for physicality. Winning a game against Bama does not a "juggernaut" make. Obviously Sumlin and some A&M fans think that running, as Dallas4Bama says, an unconventional offense will win A&M a NC (I assume that's the goal...it is here). CNS thinks otherwise (and I agree). As Dallas4Bama also says, historical fact seems to favor the CNS approach and show that these "unconventional" O's are not conducive to winning NC's. I'm merely espousing my theories as to why, not taking a shot at A&M.

If I were starting a team from scratch...I'd a lot rather have Jadaveon Clowney than JM...but that's just me. :wink:
 

257WBY

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Aug 20, 2011
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Who then? Oklahoma after Sam Bradford? Their Heisman winning qb led them to a BCSNCG...where they lost, and haven't sniffed one since. Texas after Colt McCoy? Their Heisman runner-up, award winning qb led them to a BCSNCG...where they lost, and are 22-16 in the three seasons since. Baylor after RGIII? Their Heisman winning qb led them to a ten win season...and they were 8-5 this year. Scam won the Heisman and led the Aubs to a National Championship...two years later they win three games and fire their coach.

So while A&M may not do as badly as Auburn, history points toward a downhill trend, and it's not hard to see why some would be skeptical. Can Sumlin and A&M buck the trend? We'll see.
Nick Florence broke the single season passing yardage record at Baylor, while leading them to a victory over number one Kansas St. I think the QB part of the equation worked out just fine for the Bears. Colt followed Vince Young, so I wouldn't say that Texas was a one hit wonder. Texas Tech ran a bunch of QBs through their system till they ran Leach off. You might hate Cam, but done right, spreading it out and running a zone read is dangerous.
 

bamadp

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Sep 24, 2006
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Sheffield, Al.
Nick Florence broke the single season passing yardage record at Baylor, while leading them to a victory over number one Kansas St. I think the QB part of the equation worked out just fine for the Bears. Colt followed Vince Young, so I wouldn't say that Texas was a one hit wonder. Texas Tech ran a bunch of QBs through their system till they ran Leach off. You might hate Cam, but done right, spreading it out and running a zone read is dangerous.
Baylor with RGIII= a lot of yards and a 10-3 record.
Baylor with NF= more yards and an 8-5 record.
I never said Texas was a one hit wonder. But UT running an "unconventional" offense with Colt McCoy was a one hit wonder. Why do you think Mack Brown scrapped it when Colt left? He realized you can't win a NC if you can't run the ball or stop the run. Why do you think MB is having a hard time instituting a hard nosed running attack? Because, as noted before few Texas high schools do, and where does UT get most all their recruits? At least that's my theory.
Yes, Texas Tech did run a lot of qb's through their system...with zero championships.
I don't hate anybody, just pointed out the fact that after Scam left, Auburn went downhill and eventually scrapped their "unconventional" offense.
Never said it wasn't dangerous or you couldn't amass a lot of yards or win a lot of games. Just implied that you can't win consistently or NC's with it...and history bears that out. It amazes me that with all the evidence to the contrary, teams like A&M can win one game against Bama, and some now think they're a "juggernaut" and their "unconventional" O is the way to go. :rolleyes:
 

AggieMom

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Nov 19, 2012
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I would like to ask a question about Alabama's defense and think it relates to unconventional offenses. I'm not familiar enough with Saban's defense, but it appears they run groups of defensive players on and off the field with regularity. I think this is what is called "defensive packages". Not trying to say there is anything wrong with this but he does appear to take it to an extreme and therefore might be considered unconventional. Am I correct? I can understand why Saban and Alabama boosters do not not like hurry up offenses which are an attempt to disrupt this, but it appears that there is nothing wrong or illegal about this. Just looks like gamesmanship. I would expect Saban to scheme over the summer but would expect the other side to scheme as well.
 
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TIDE-HSV

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I would like to ask a question about Alabama's defense and think it relates to unconventional offenses. I'm not familiar enough with Saban's defense, but it appears they run groups of defensive players on and off the field with regularity. I think this is what is called "defensive packages". Not trying to say there is anything wrong with this but he does appear to take it to an extreme and therefore might be considered unconventional. Am I correct? I can understand why Saban and Alabama boosters do not not like hurry up offenses which are an attempt to disrupt this, but it appears that there is nothing wrong or illegal about this. Just looks like gamesmanship. I would expect Saban to scheme over the summer but would expect the other side to scheme as well.
That's pretty accurate...
 

AggieMom

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Nov 19, 2012
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A few points...
A&M got 70% of their points and 40% of their yards in the first quarter. They were out gained 400-250 yds. and out scored 24-9 (and should've been 31-9) the final three...but they hung on to win and are to be congratulated for that. As for the Cotton Bowl, I wouldn't consider OU as a measuring stick for physicality. Winning a game against Bama does not a "juggernaut" make. Obviously Sumlin and some A&M fans think that running, as Dallas4Bama says, an unconventional offense will win A&M a NC (I assume that's the goal...it is here). CNS thinks otherwise (and I agree). As Dallas4Bama also says, historical fact seems to favor the CNS approach and show that these "unconventional" O's are not conducive to winning NC's. I'm merely espousing my theories as to why, not taking a shot at A&M.

If I were starting a team from scratch...I'd a lot rather have Jadaveon Clowney than JM...but that's just me. :wink:
I think that what Sumlin thinks is that running an unconventional offense with a good defense will win a national championship. I don't see where an unconventional offense precludes you from having a good defense. I know that you will point to Oregon and other such teams as evidence to the contrary but I think he realizes that a good defense is necessary in the SEC. I haven't seen anywhere where Sumlin has sold out the defense. I think he was just playing the best he could with the players he had when he got there and trying to build on that with recruiting and development of players already there. If I could take only one player, I would be hard pressed between those two....personally I'd like both!
 

bamadp

All-SEC
Sep 24, 2006
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Sheffield, Al.
I think that what Sumlin thinks is that running an unconventional offense with a good defense will win a national championship. I don't see where an unconventional offense precludes you from having a good defense. I know that you will point to Oregon and other such teams as evidence to the contrary but I think he realizes that a good defense is necessary in the SEC. I haven't seen anywhere where Sumlin has sold out the defense. I think he was just playing the best he could with the players he had when he got there and trying to build on that with recruiting and development of players already there. If I could take only one player, I would be hard pressed between those two....personally I'd like both!
If your defense is good enough you'll win. It's like that old saying...if the other team doesn't score, you can't lose. :wink:

Can you have an "unconventional" offense with a top notch defense? Sure, it's possible. But past history indicates that it's not probable. Of the four teams that run a hurry up and have played in the BCSNCG, Oklahoma in 2008, Texas in 2009, and Oregon and Auburn in 2010, only one,Texas had a defense in the top 30, and we saw what happened to them. Even the Aubs, who won in 2010 were not in the top 50 nationally and were 8th or 9th in the SEC. Look at Okie St., West Virginia, and yes Texas A&M. Since they started running this type O have any of these teams had a top 30 Defense? Has A&M even had a top 50 defense since they went to this O? How many seasons have these aforementioned teams run these hurry up offenses? About 25? And how many have had defenses ranked in even the top 30? Once or twice? There seems to be some correlation there. Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No, but maybe Sumlin can buck the trend.
 

jagvocate

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Jun 14, 2010
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I didn't watch a lot of SEC ball back when Spurrier had the Fun N' Gun going ... How were his defenses?
 

AggieMom

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Nov 19, 2012
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If your defense is good enough you'll win. It's like that old saying...if the other team doesn't score, you can't lose. :wink:

Can you have an "unconventional" offense with a top notch defense? Sure, it's possible. But past history indicates that it's not probable. Of the four teams that run a hurry up and have played in the BCSNCG, Oklahoma in 2008, Texas in 2009, and Oregon and Auburn in 2010, only one,Texas had a defense in the top 30, and we saw what happened to them. Even the Aubs, who won in 2010 were not in the top 50 nationally and were 8th or 9th in the SEC. Look at Okie St., West Virginia, and yes Texas A&M. Since they started running this type O have any of these teams had a top 30 Defense? Has A&M even had a top 50 defense since they went to this O? How many seasons have these aforementioned teams run these hurry up offenses? About 25? And how many have had defenses ranked in even the top 30? Once or twice? There seems to be some correlation there. Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No, but maybe Sumlin can buck the trend.
In the case of TAMU, they have only run the hurry up one year so don't have much history. Sherman ran a pro style offense with a 3-4 defense. When Snyder was brought in as DC he brought in 4-3 defense. I guess time will tell.
 

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