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  1. #66
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: Maryland 247sports site reporting UNC has a Big Ten offer

    Quote Originally Posted by KrAzY3 View Post
    Where the investments are coming from don't really matter though do they? Investment is investment. Virginia Tech doesn't have much investment...
    Yes, they do. When we start thinking about adding conference members, I'm only concerned about the health of their football and basketball programs. I'm underwhelmed by all these possibilities...
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  3. #67
    BamaNation All-American KrAzY3's Avatar
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    Re: Maryland 247sports site reporting UNC has a Big Ten offer

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    Yes, they do. When we start thinking about adding conference members, I'm only concerned about the health of their football and basketball programs. I'm underwhelmed by all these possibilities...
    The health of VT's basketball program is not very good, and you really think VT would continue football success in the SEC? Their "health" is a recent occurrence contingent on success. There is 0 proof it would continue without success, which is the likely (and hopeful for other SEC schools) outcome. The rest I wrote isn't a direct response to you of course...

    This is a complicated subject and something in much greater depth could be written. For starters, I have to make it clear why total athletic revenue is so important. This is investment in the athletic department. We are talking about a product, and when a school is investing more into the product this means a great deal. 30 million dollars is a huge gap, especially considering the football success Virginia Tech has had. I listed athletic revenue when talking about A&M as well, it demonstrated they were willing to financially support their football team. It doesn't matter if it is rich alumni, the state, money coming in is money coming in.

    We can not ignore other sports either. Basketball programming can be worth in the range of 1-10 million per year, tier three (which would be the bulk of network programming) can range from 1-10 million per year. One school could be worth 2 or 3 million per year in that regard, and another like North Carolina could be worth around 20 million. The additional investment is huge when talking about SEC Network programming, because it means better products all around. Football will not make up a bulk of the programming, so all those things North Carolina and Virginia are spending (and making) money on, will add value. It is entirely realistic to phrase it as saying Virginia and North Carolina could be worth 30 million more per year. That's a ton of money, but in terms of value for SEC programming, that is not a completely unrealistic number.

    The other is analysis of Virginia Tech football, which as I said before is their only trick. Their revenue is behind Virginia, even with huge earnings in football. This means the rest of their athletic department is starved and poorly supported, both by fans and the school itself. The value of everything else is almost non-existent. Even if they continue their football success, they are likely worth less than Virginia. Without it? They are more Vanderbilt and Mississippi State than anything else. Showing their football revenue is not a pro, it's a con because it shows how reliant they are on football success.

    Virginia Tech would be competing with Florida, Georgia, Tennessee,and South Carolina. They are demonstrably better supported. South Carolina doesn't have much of a history of football either, but let's be clear here. With Texas A&M, they unseated Arkansas and Auburn. They have a stadium of nearly 90K seating, in a state of over 25 million. This was good for the SEC. If Virginia Tech does it, they are unseating a traditional power. We're talking about a school with over ten thousand less attendance than South Carolina, unseating a Florida (89K), Georgia (92K), or Tennessee (94K). This could cost millions alone, because it would be a borderline football power brand hurting an established football power brand. And, furthermore Virginia Tech's athletic department simply doesn't have the money to expand seating at a fast rate. Once again, they're not a rich program.

    The notion that Virginia Tech is another Florida State is a bit misleading (by the way, they've had financial troubles after Bowden left). Florida St. has far more attendance and is far more accomplished. More importantly, Florida cares much more about college sports. Many people have said it in different ways, but the truth is Virginia just isn't a college football state. And, their allegiances are all over the map. Sure, they'll cheer for VT if they are winning, but that simply is unlikely. This is the SEC! I'm not in love with Virginia either, but I know they won't harm football brands and will contribute without relying on football success.

    I looked up attendance numbers for 1998, which is the farthest back the NCAA site has them. Virginia was steady at 43K. North Carolina was steady at 55K (close to current numbers). Virginia Tech, in the heart of a run of great seasons, of big bowls, was at 49K. This is Virginia Tech when they are winning! They were behind where North Carolina is when they are losing. Think about that. We're told that VT fans will follow them everywhere. Really? Then how come they didn't follow them then? How come a basketball school had better football attendance?

    The truth is that if VT joins the SEC, even with success they will be underfunded. They could represent a net loss by harming a more powerful SEC brand. The likelihood though is that they start losing, attendance drops, and the state of Virginia forgets about Virginia Tech football. There simply is no history of fan support to lean on, no history of financial support. Virginia Tech is fool's gold. I used these same factors to explain why Texas A&M was a good addition, and they say Virginia Tech is a bad addition. It's all in the numbers.

    There is a reason that the Big 10 is going after North Carolina and not Virginia Tech. There is a reason the ACC didn't want Virginia Tech. A lot of SEC fans can't see past football, but as I've said before, the SEC can't win two BCS Championship games in one year. They can't pile success on top of success. There has to be losers to, so the idea of adding a school reliant on football success to even be mediocre in the conference is ridiculous in my mind.

    I'm going over it in my head and I'm not seeing how the likelyhood of a VT with a mid 50K football attendance, with middle of the road athletic revenue, and a low tier bowl game most years seems like a great addition. I'm just not getting the allure.
    Last edited by KrAzY3; February 20th, 2013 at 09:43 AM.
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    BamaNation Hall of Fame RJ YellowHammer's Avatar
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    Maryland 247sports site reporting UNC has a Big Ten offer

    Quote Originally Posted by MrRourke View Post
    Why should Joe Fan give one rip about generating extra SEC revenue?
    Joe Fan needs to understand that facilities, coaching staffs, travel, etc. cost a great deal of money. The better we're funded the better our stuff is. If our stuff is better we get better players. If we get better players our team is better. Tell Joe Fan to pay attention.
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    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: Maryland 247sports site reporting UNC has a Big Ten offer

    I'm through. Work is waiting and I don't have time for this...
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

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    BamaNation All-American TiderJ's Avatar
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    Re: Maryland 247sports site reporting UNC has a Big Ten offer

    Quote Originally Posted by KrAzY3 View Post
    Where the investments are coming from don't really matter though do they? Investment is investment.
    With this thought process we should be going after Harvard and Yale.

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    BamaNation All-American B1GTide's Avatar
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    Re: Maryland 247sports site reporting UNC has a Big Ten offer

    Quote Originally Posted by TiderJ View Post
    With this thought process we should be going after Harvard and Yale.
    Or Stanford: http://news.yahoo.com/stanford-unive...--finance.html

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    Re: Maryland 247sports site reporting UNC has a Big Ten offer

    Do fees like those connected for ticket clubs (like your "Tide Pride") count as subsidies or direct revenue?

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    BamaNation All-American TiderJ's Avatar
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    Re: Maryland 247sports site reporting UNC has a Big Ten offer

    Quote Originally Posted by B1GTide View Post
    Wow. That is incredible. Interesting to see SC at #4.

  10. #74
    BamaNation All-American KrAzY3's Avatar
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    Re: Maryland 247sports site reporting UNC has a Big Ten offer

    Quote Originally Posted by TiderJ View Post
    With this thought process we should be going after Harvard and Yale.
    If they chose to invest 100 million per year in their athletic departments we probably should. We're only talking about that, I haven't gotten into endowments or the like (if I did that I would be saying Virginia is worth billions more than Virginia Tech). Athletic department revenue is obviously important, this ultimately means if they can do things like send their band to away games, expand their stadium, or do investments that will contribute to a strong fan base that travels well, etc... It's highly pertinent.

    Virginia Tech would also have to pay a massive exit fee, which by all appearances they couldn't afford unless the SEC paid it for them. Their financial well being, and the financial support of their athletic programs does directly correlate to their value as a SEC program, since the SEC is an athletic conference. The lack of financial support, also proves lack of fan support. Boosters, alumni, politicians... they support what they like, and they don't support Virginia Tech very much, so this defies the logic that Virginia Tech has a rabid base.
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    "This is how it should be every game, every home game... the fans were just amazing". - Kevin Norwood on 2013 LSU game
    "Four, five-star recruits are in Tuscaloosa, and then they see a stadium start emptying out at halftime"

  11. #75
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    Re: Maryland 247sports site reporting UNC has a Big Ten offer

    I hate to repeat my statements over and over but I really don't care for any of the "market expansion" options left for us. UNC is the crown jewel of what is left on that list. NCST, UVA, and VT just don't seem like long-term profitable additions. UNC has their issues too but I think they have capacity to grow in football and they immediately lift men's basketball into a force.

    I truly think the best option for further expansion is to go after Clemson and FSU. They fit the model of an SEC program. They aren't a market expansion though and that seems to be the motivator for adding school to the mix. It really highlights the problem going forward with expansion. We start to not only degrade the geographical cohesiveness of the conference but the financial well-being too. Clemson and FSU add little to the total revenue because they don't provide new markets. Teams like UVA, VT, and NCST will add markets but they may not add enough value long-term to be a positive addition.
    Last edited by rgw; February 20th, 2013 at 11:41 AM.

  12. #76
    BamaNation All-American TiderJ's Avatar
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    Re: Maryland 247sports site reporting UNC has a Big Ten offer

    Quote Originally Posted by rgw View Post
    I hate to repeat my statements over and over but I really don't care for any of the "market expansion" options left for us. UNC is the crown jewel of what is left on that list. NCST, UVA, and VT just don't seem like long-term profitable additions. UNC has their issues too but I think they have capacity to grow in football and they immediately lift men's basketball into a force.

    I truly think the best option for further expansion is to go after Clemson and FSU. They fit the model of an SEC program. They aren't a market expansion though and that seems to be the motivator for adding school to the mix. It really highlights the problem going forward with expansion. We start to not only degrade the geographical cohesiveness of the conference but the financial well-being too. Clemson and FSU add little to the total revenue because they don't provide new markets. Teams like UVA, VT, and NCST will add markets but they may not add enough value long-term to be a positive addition.
    They fit the football model but not the business model. The business model will win out which includes states we are not currently in. I just don't see UNC being interested in the SEC but could be wrong and hope I'm wrong.

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    Re: Maryland 247sports site reporting UNC has a Big Ten offer

    That's my point really. At what point does the business model stop working in practice? What gains do we really get in modest football markets in Virginia and North Carolina...especially when it seems like we will be getting the Auburn equivalent of each state in the process? At what point do we add a market that seems on paper to be dynamite but years later the broadcasters tell us to adjust our forecasts because they aren't getting good ratings in those markets?

    I think we are increasingly getting to that pivot point in our strategy. I just don't think Richmond or Charlotte are going to be bread winners in our market strategy. We may get a short-term bump from the broadcasters but what about the long-term value? I think Clemson and FSU have far more long-term value despite the broadcasters playing every conference into this market footprint power grab.

  14. #78
    BamaNation All-SEC MOAN's Avatar
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    Re: Maryland 247sports site reporting UNC has a Big Ten offer

    I personally don't see any school up North or anywhere for that matter that will out spend Alabama for coaches, facilities and what have you. No matter how many teams or who they bring into their conference. Will they get a bigger tv contract? Probably but they will also have more hands sticking out to divide it among. I'm not seeing the huge benefit for the SEC expanding should the BIG keep expanding.

    Besides the top talent here in the South will remain in the South for the most part thus making the SEC just as attractive as it has always been for the best coaches. Most of the schools in the BIG have plenty of money already to upgrade their facilities I would suspect. Getting them to spend it on that may be the problem for their fans. But it don't matter how much tv money they get they can't change the climate up there!

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