Texas A & M in comparison to Auburn

Re: Texas A & M....

A word about the Honor Code. Accusing someone of a violation is serious business and requires actual Evidence of a violation or wrongdoing.

Darren Rovell and Joe Schad and their shadowy autograph industry hearsay sources are not sufficient in an honor hearing. If A&M has proof that Johnny was paid, A&M will sit him.

But maybe, just maybe, ESPNs reporting has some holes in it. Have we ever seen "the video"? Why will no one go on the record with the NCAA? If no witness will sign their name to their anonymous allegations, I don't know how that constitutes valid NCAA proof.

Re: Texas A & M....

jagvocate said:

A word about the Honor Code. Accusing someone of a violation is serious business and requires actual Evidence of a violation or wrongdoing.

Darren Rovell and Joe Schad and their shadowy autograph industry hearsay sources are not sufficient in an honor hearing. If A&M has proof that Johnny was paid, A&M will sit him.

But maybe, just maybe, ESPNs reporting has some holes in it. Have we ever seen "the video"? Why will no one go on the record with the NCAA? If no witness will sign their name to their anonymous allegations, I don't know how that constitutes valid NCAA proof.

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1) Nobody will go on the record. Well guess what? All it takes is a little money and a reminder of how miserable one's life can be made if you talk. Should I point out the refusal to talk itself constitutes as much evidence against him? If the answer is no then why not shout it from the housetops? It's the same as when an accused murderer doesn't take the stand - it might be legal and a prosecutor is not allow to infer from it - but common sense tells you a person falsely accused of first-degree murder who is innocent will proclaim that from the chair. (Using such logic, Barry Bonds did not do steroids).

2) JF is not Cal Ripken. Does anyone REALLY think he signed a mountain of stuff for free?

3) When someone is saying "well, there is no evidence" in a case like this, what it means is "we know he did it but we're crossing our fingers that no evidence comes up in the future." It's just like the TEN players from Auburn saying they were paid. One might have an axe to grind, maybe even two. But when ten all say it unprovoked you KNOW it happened whether you can prove it or not.

4) We at Alabama have another reason to be suspicious: suppose aTm beats us and it comes out right after the game that there is a camera showing the money transaction. Who do you think everyone is going to blame for it? We will get more negative press than JF will at that juncture.

I will refrain from simply tossing out the Aggies as Auburn until I see more.

Re: Texas A & M....

selmaborntidefan said:

1) Nobody will go on the record. Well guess what? All it takes is a little money and a reminder of how miserable one's life can be made if you talk. Should I point out the refusal to talk itself constitutes as much evidence against him? If the answer is no then why not shout it from the housetops? It's the same as when an accused murderer doesn't take the stand - it might be legal and a prosecutor is not allow to infer from it - but common sense tells you a person falsely accused of first-degree murder who is innocent will proclaim that from the chair. (Using such logic, Barry Bonds did not do steroids).

2) JF is not Cal Ripken. Does anyone REALLY think he signed a mountain of stuff for free?

3) When someone is saying "well, there is no evidence" in a case like this, what it means is "we know he did it but we're crossing our fingers that no evidence comes up in the future." It's just like the TEN players from Auburn saying they were paid. One might have an axe to grind, maybe even two. But when ten all say it unprovoked you KNOW it happened whether you can prove it or not.

4) We at Alabama have another reason to be suspicious: suppose aTm beats us and it comes out right after the game that there is a camera showing the money transaction. Who do you think everyone is going to blame for it? We will get more negative press than JF will at that juncture.

I will refrain from simply tossing out the Aggies as Auburn until I see more.

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Allowing anonymous evidence? Hello Star Chamber, Kangaroo Court, etc. We still live in America the last time I checked.

Re: Texas A & M....

GrayTide said:

I am no fan of JF but suspect none of this TAMU and Manziel bashing overload on Tidefans would exist if we had beaten them in BDS last year.

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Very possible. Then again, if Bama had won that game, JF most likely would not have won the Heisman, Bama would still have been NC, and he could have signed to his heart's content, if anyone cared to want his stupid autograph. There would still be a bunch of head shaking and tsk tsk, and the NCAA might possibly have already declared him henceforth ineligible. But there's that word...if.

Roll Tide, Roll...A'ight!

Re: Texas A & M....

I don't see the comparison now. First they resolved the problem they had with Texas has being in their shadow. They left the conference and decided to go on their own. Right now for the past 6 months Texas has been crying in their cereal. As far as the Johnny Football saga, we have no right to be judgmental. I still remember the past. If he did it, it will come out.

Re: Texas A & M....

jagvocate said:

Allowing anonymous evidence? Hello Star Chamber, Kangaroo Court, etc. We still live in America the last time I checked.

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The last time I looked, the NCAA was not a court of law. And let me say this - the only folks I've ever known who immediately got defensive and started invoking the vacancies you just did was guilty as sin. Allowing anonymous evidence? I see you're not familiar with what happened when the star anonymous witness against us was the coach of the arch-rival.

It's college football, not a court of law.

Re: Texas A & M....

Btw - two things here:

1) We are ALL judgmental about every situation. That hackneyed and misused phrase only condemns hypocritical judgment, not making a rational inference from the data.

2) Innocent until proven guilty is a legal fiction that only applies in a court. It has no bearing or strength anywhere else. Nobody has ever proven Cam Newton was bought but you'd have to be a fool to think he wasn't. It was not proven in the legal sense but it surely was in the common sense.

Re: Texas A & M....

jagvocate said:

A word about the Honor Code. Accusing someone of a violation is serious business and requires actual Evidence of a violation or wrongdoing.

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Is this a joke? Fran repeatedly lied about not leaving Tuscaloosa or talking with aTm during his last season at Bama, and was promptly hired by aTm. They knew at the time he was a liar, but they were so proud they hired him.

And now their "honor code" is their best argument that Johnny hasn't taken any money?

Difference? One has more money!

Re: Texas A & M....

jagvocate said:

A word about the Honor Code. Accusing someone of a violation is serious business and requires actual Evidence of a violation or wrongdoing.

Darren Rovell and Joe Schad and their shadowy autograph industry hearsay sources are not sufficient in an honor hearing. If A&M has proof that Johnny was paid, A&M will sit him.

But maybe, just maybe, ESPNs reporting has some holes in it. Have we ever seen "the video"? Why will no one go on the record with the NCAA? If no witness will sign their name to their anonymous allegations, I don't know how that constitutes valid NCAA proof.

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Slide off your moral high horse and realize you just said " actual proof." Hiring lawyers and throwing " circumstantial" around sure doesn't Jeep your case any. Are you so clueless to think Aggie boosters wouldn't shut these guys up? Why would you number autographs if you weren't being compensated? Four thousand four hundred is almost four hundred autographs a month for a year! Nobody does that.

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I think the aTm fans will be welcomed in Tuscaloosa their next visit as warmly as they were the first time.

You have to understand longtime Bama fans remember we tried to cooperate and be civil in dealing with the NCAA, and were hammered for it.

Then we watched Auburn thumb it's nose at the NCAA and get away with it. Now it looks like aTm might be taking the same aggravating approach Auburn did. "I'm pure as the driven snow and you can't actually prove otherwise."

I think it's understandable that some Bama fans are taking swipes at the guys making the decisions at aTm.

Fan bases often don't get along. The Oklahoma/Bama fan bases are the closest to being friends in my opinion, but at the same time even the Sooner's coach is now taking cheap shots.

Btw - the Aggie honor code was brought up. It's a red herring but let me address it.


We honestly don't give a hoot about some other school's code. But here's the issue: when you hold yourself up as a bastion of goodness that is above certain things then you can't scream like a stuck pig when it is revealed as a fraud. Let's face it: if a third-string offensive lineman were accused of the same stuff JF is, this story would not even register AND the lineman would no longer be on the team. It's like the fact the public responds far differently to Jimmy Swaggart committing adultery than it does to office holders - invite a higher standard then expect to be held to it. That's why the defensive "you can't prove anything" shows the same consciousness of guilt.

I'm with Agvocate in the sense that yes the media thrives on sensationalism and often does not get their facts right. I've been highly critical of that in numerous posts on the NS board. The NCAA is a complete joke anyway as their arbitrary sanctions have a permanent spot on "Unsolved Mysteries." But again - don't invite a higher standard and then complain when you fail to meet it.

selmaborntidefan said:

Btw - the Aggie honor code was brought up. It's a red herring but let me address it.


We honestly don't give a hoot about some other school's code. But here's the issue: when you hold yourself up as a bastion of goodness that is above certain things then you can't scream like a stuck pig when it is revealed as a fraud. Let's face it: if a third-string offensive lineman were accused of the same stuff JF is, this story would not even register AND the lineman would no longer be on the team. It's like the fact the public responds far differently to Jimmy Swaggart committing adultery than it does to office holders - invite a higher standard then expect to be held to it. That's why the defensive "you can't prove anything" shows the same consciousness of guilt.

I'm with Agvocate in the sense that yes the media thrives on sensationalism and often does not get their facts right. I've been highly critical of that in numerous posts on the NS board. The NCAA is a complete joke anyway as their arbitrary sanctions have a permanent spot on "Unsolved Mysteries." But again - don't invite a higher standard and then complain when you fail to meet it.

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I like this post Bill. I also believe that ESPN is a joke as much as the NCAA is. I refuse to watch ESPN unless it is an SEC game, and then I mute it. ESPN will make a story where there is no story much as the NCAA will contrive findings or simply assess sanctions with or without evidence. As for the Aggie's code of honor, that is their bailiwick I do not care either way.

Whether guilty or not the fate and public perception of JF and TAMU is their problem.

I think aTm is 9-3 even if the money badger plays or not. I hope he is there when we get there.

Re: Texas A & M....

mikes12 said:

I wish they still had an annual out-of-conference rivalry game with Texas like Florida does with FSU, UGA and GT, or USCe with Clemson. Those rivalries, despite conferences, are part of what make college football so much fun.

Texas can claim it was a Big12 rule preventing it, but Texas is the one who makes the Big12 rules.

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It is ironic that Texas in the old SWC played the "Red River Shoot-Out" rivalry game every year with Oklahoma when they were a Big Eight school, but now when TAMU is no longer in the same conference with Texas the traditional season ending rivalry simply cannot continue.

Re: Texas A & M....

jagvocate said:

But maybe, just maybe, ESPNs reporting has some holes in it. Have we ever seen "the video"? Why will no one go on the record with the NCAA? If no witness will sign their name to their anonymous allegations, I don't know how that constitutes valid NCAA proof.

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Ok, let me get this straight. A&M goes out and gets the lawyers Auburn used, the Manziels lawyer up to. They start going out, and telling people to take things down off Ebay, etc... they scare people into silence, you have politicians in Texas publicly claiming that people could be prosecuted for getting Johnny to sign, and you're over here where's the proof? That's the type of thing a gangster would say after burying a few bodies. Please...

The proof is in the fact that there are multiple accounts of Johnny being paid for autographs, and numerous examples of said autographs. Never mind the fact that it would have been a violation if he just knew they would be sold (no need for money to exchange hands). This kind of talk is sadly why the Auburn comparison is sounding increasingly correct.

I was one of the biggest supporters for adding Texas A&M to the SEC on this board. I was arguing for it, well over a year before it happened. I was given access to A&M inside info on the issue and the like, and I was steadfast in my belief that A&M was more than just another Auburn, that they could step out of Texas' shadow.

I felt sorry for A&M when this news came out. It seemed like were forced into a tough situation because Johnny was paid for autographs before the end of the season. This means that they can't just sit Johnny, and face no punishment. The NCAA in their eternal wisdom throws the books at people who cooperate, and if A&M admits Johnny was signed autographs knowing they would be sold, they played an ineligible player.

I can understand their not talking much, I can understand their negotiating with the NCAA behind closed doors. The issue I have is that they just opened the Auburn playbook, they acted like a little brother acts, and denied and deflected as best they could. It is Cam all over again, in that we don't know what we know we know.

It is sad to witness. A&M was on the verge of becoming a true power, perhaps even rivaling Alabama in the SEC West, and taking true steps to catch up to Texas. But, Johnny screwed that up a bit, and they are taking a path that we all know doesn't pay long term dividends. If you can't respect yourself, you can't expect others to respect you, and Auburn was willing to lie, and cheat, and do what ever they could for a short term reward, and now they're a giant mess. A&M seems willing to do the same, and I find it sad.

I also find it frustrating, since it makes the entire SEC look bad.