What a game!

Quicksilver

1st Team
Mar 13, 2010
393
30
52
Ellicott City, MD
I for one hope that the 2013 Alabama team has not yet (to use the popular phrase) “found its identity”. Alabama’s first two games constitute an object lesson in the difference between achieving desired results (i.e., winning games) and mastering a winning formula. Against Virginia Tech, the Alabama offense barely showed up. Against TX A&M, the Alabama defense gave up way too many yards and points. Neither pattern will work going forward. When the defense can hold opposing teams to around 12 points per game and the offense is scoring, on average, about 32 points, then the Tide world will be right again!
 

TideFan in AU

Hall of Fame
Guys, Kevin Sumlin was on the OU staff before he went to UH. He was our O-coordinator. The O he is using is a classic Big 12 scheme. No doubt Manziel adds a little dash to the hash but so did RG111 to the Baylor O. Recruiting to defend these O's requires an inordinate emphasis on the back 7 in attracting players at the expense of putting a team on the field that is geared to stop a more traditional O.

Folks, I am not commenting herein to defend the Big 12. I am under no illusions as to which is the best conference in college football right now. In fact, I think the Big 12 today is a clone of the Mtn. West at best and I am sick about the direction the conference has taken over the years.

Certainly, a Big 12 style O can be defended. My point is, we see this type of scheme every week. It's a pinball wizard diet of 7/7 drills run amok. OU has now gone to a 3-3-5 as our base D to counter these spread the field O's. Another problem the spread O's has caused in our recruiting area is the dirth of quality DL recruits in Texas. The state used to be a RB/LB producing machine. Now it's all about QB's, WR's, & DB's. When you continually practice against a passing attack it will weaken your D. Defending a strong running attack daily in practice strengthens your D.

I would not call the Florida wth Tebow remotely similar to the schemes we see in the Big 12. Tebow was more of a single-wing tailback. He was no passer in comparison to the QB's we have traditionally seen over the past few years in the Big 12. Anyway, it was an entertaining game and the Tide is to be congratulated on the win. As I said, Kyle Field is a tough place to play under any circumstances. You all should be on your way now.
That's what I'm trying to say as well, except Manziel adds WAYYY more than "a little dash to the hash". Sumlin's offense is not what gave us fits. You can't defend Johhny Manziel like you can a immobile dropback passer, which is what a lot of Big 12 QB's are/were. Vince Young and RGIII were exceptions, and that's the biggest reason why Texas is the last Big 12 team to bring home a NC. The reason OU, OSU, TTU, and Texas has had so much trouble in NC games and bowl games in general is because if you can stop their running games without stacking the box (which most good SEC defenses can because of the quality of DL) you can control the passing spread offenses.
If Manziel didn't have the ability to pass AND run as well as he does, Sumlin's offense would be as easy to stop as any other passing spread offense. As you said, the style offenses you run are not helping the defense stop a run first team. Sumlin is doing what Texas did with Young, Florida did with Tebow, and what AU did with Cam Newton - they have an athlete that is so dynamic that a defense has to defend him as a QB and a RB. As you said, they used different schemes, but it came down to a QB that was the best player on the field. The problem with that approach that it is not sustainable unless you find an elite QB that is an elite athlete as well every couple of years. So far, Texas, UF, and AU have not been able to do that.
 
Last edited:

owenfieldreams

Big-12 All American
Sep 8, 2002
1,710
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galveston tx. usa
delpapabud.com
I agree - and this is certainly not true of most boards, included a lot of other Bama boards as well.
Insert RG111 into the A&M scheme and you have the same result.

Somehow there seems to be a defensive posture that says that w/o Manziel, this would have been a blowout. Hell, he only managed to score 29 on the Tide in Tuscaloosa last year. How did he manage to up the total in 2013? Because they had a lot more in the plan this year that made defensing the scheme more difficult. Again, RG111 would have exploded in this O vs pretty much any college D.

Anyway, my original point was not to denigrate the Alabama effort or D. It was to simply make the point that the Big 12 has turned into a point-a-minute pinball wizard league. It's entertaining but not what those of us who have watched OU since the Wilkinson years would like to see.
 

B1GTide

TideFans Legend
Apr 13, 2012
45,502
46,845
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Insert RG111 into the A&M scheme and you have the same result.

Somehow there seems to be a defensive posture that says that w/o Manziel, this would have been a blowout. Hell, he only managed to score 29 on the Tide in Tuscaloosa last year. How did he manage to up the total in 2013? Because they had a lot more in the plan this year that made defensing the scheme more difficult. Again, RG111 would have exploded in this O vs pretty much any college D.

Anyway, my original point was not to denigrate the Alabama effort or D. It was to simply make the point that the Big 12 has turned into a point-a-minute pinball wizard league. It's entertaining but not what those of us who have watched OU since the Wilkinson years would like to see.
I agree that RGIII was the same type player, but are you suggesting that the Big 12 is chock full of RGIIs and Manziels every year?
 

FanoBama

New Member
Sep 3, 2012
16
0
0
Leesburg, FL
Mike Evans was the MVP for A&M in my book. A&M had 628 yards, but take away Evan's 279 receiving yards and A&M has only 349 yards. JM had 464 passing yards, yet take away Evan's 279 receiving yards and he has only 185 passing yards. We could not stop A&M's offense because we could not cover Evans.
I was thinking the same thing ... how many big catches did have. That kid had a field day, primarily because of his size. He wasn't overly fast ... considering how little success we had stopping him with DBs, I would've considered putting a quick LB on him and chuck him at the line. At least the would've been a little more equal.
Saban said a lot of nice things afterwards, perhaps to help rebuild the ego of his defense. I'm hoping Saturday was an aberration, the case of running into a quarterback with Flutie-esque qualities, and not a sign that our defense is not as good as advertised.
I know it's not the 2011 defense, but it's got to be better than what we saw Saturday.

Roll Tide!
 

Boo Radley

All-SEC
Dec 13, 2003
1,710
1
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Domus Dulcis Alabamus
I agree that RGIII was the same type player, but are you suggesting that the Big 12 is chock full of RGIIs and Manziels every year?
I think what Owen and Wishbone are saying is that these type of QBs and receivers will be more commonplace with high schools and 7/7 leagues emulating HUNH spread offenses. Big and fast players don't grow on trees, so the way for smaller schools to compete is to run these systems. I see it happening more and more at the HS level and kids seem to love it. I miss the wishbone days.
 

TideFan in AU

Hall of Fame
Insert RG111 into the A&M scheme and you have the same result.

Somehow there seems to be a defensive posture that says that w/o Manziel, this would have been a blowout. Hell, he only managed to score 29 on the Tide in Tuscaloosa last year. How did he manage to up the total in 2013? Because they had a lot more in the plan this year that made defensing the scheme more difficult. Again, RG111 would have exploded in this O vs pretty much any college D.

Anyway, my original point was not to denigrate the Alabama effort or D. It was to simply make the point that the Big 12 has turned into a point-a-minute pinball wizard league. It's entertaining but not what those of us who have watched OU since the Wilkinson years would like to see.
I agree if RGIII was in Sumlin's offense, it would be tough to defend, but I've never seen him make the kind of plays out of busted plays like Manziel has. If you insert Jason White, Colt McCoy, Sam Bradford, Brandon Weeden, Graham Harrell, BJ Symons, Landry Jones, Chase Daniel or Blaine Gabbert in Sumlin's offense, we do not give up 600 yards and 42 points. None of those QB's could beat us with their legs like Manziel can.

What Manziel does is not typical of normal Big 12 (or anybody else) QB's. That's the point I was making. You seem to be making the point that TAMU's offense is the average Big 12 offense that you guys face week in, week out. That is not the case.

Have you forgot about him putting 633 yards on ya'll in Cotton Bowl? He rushed for over 200 yards on your defense, right?

Like him or not, he's something special.




I agree that RGIII was the same type player, but are you suggesting that the Big 12 is chock full of RGIIs and Manziels every year?
Exactly.
 

deliveryman35

Hall of Fame
Jul 26, 2003
12,998
1,194
287
55
Gadsden, AL
Insert RG111 into the A&M scheme and you have the same result.

Somehow there seems to be a defensive posture that says that w/o Manziel, this would have been a blowout. Hell, he only managed to score 29 on the Tide in Tuscaloosa last year. How did he manage to up the total in 2013? Because they had a lot more in the plan this year that made defensing the scheme more difficult. Again, RG111 would have exploded in this O vs pretty much any college D.

Anyway, my original point was not to denigrate the Alabama effort or D. It was to simply make the point that the Big 12 has turned into a point-a-minute pinball wizard league. It's entertaining but not what those of us who have watched OU since the Wilkinson years would like to see.
Good posts, Owen. Always enjoy reading your insight and perspective.

It should be noted again though that without two horrible calls that gifted TAMU 14 pts, this game would not have been as close as it was and the Tide would have won by at least 21 pts.
 

TIDE-HSV

Senior Administrator
Staff member
Oct 13, 1999
84,552
39,656
437
Huntsville, AL,USA
Insert RG111 into the A&M scheme and you have the same result.

Somehow there seems to be a defensive posture that says that w/o Manziel, this would have been a blowout. Hell, he only managed to score 29 on the Tide in Tuscaloosa last year. How did he manage to up the total in 2013? Because they had a lot more in the plan this year that made defensing the scheme more difficult. Again, RG111 would have exploded in this O vs pretty much any college D.

Anyway, my original point was not to denigrate the Alabama effort or D. It was to simply make the point that the Big 12 has turned into a point-a-minute pinball wizard league. It's entertaining but not what those of us who have watched OU since the Wilkinson years would like to see.
I think you missed the point that there's not a Manziel, RGIII or Young hiding behind every Russian Thistle. Also, Manziel is a very much improved player over last year. The escapability is about the same, but the guy has turned into a helluva pinpoint passer. Last year, I didn't think he was an NFL prospect. I've changed my mind. He's like a Drew Brees with more wheels. I frankly don't think he's as tall as Brees, from seeing him next to players of whom I know the correct height. However, I think some team - this next April - will find him attractive...
 

theballguy

Hall of Fame
Nov 5, 2012
6,268
1,083
187
Roll Tide Roll, Colorado USA
Guys, Kevin Sumlin was on the OU staff before he went to UH. He was our O-coordinator. The O he is using is a classic Big 12 scheme. No doubt Manziel adds a little dash to the hash but so did RG111 to the Baylor O. Recruiting to defend these O's requires an inordinate emphasis on the back 7 in attracting players at the expense of putting a team on the field that is geared to stop a more traditional O.

Folks, I am not commenting herein to defend the Big 12. I am under no illusions as to which is the best conference in college football right now. In fact, I think the Big 12 today is a clone of the Mtn. West at best and I am sick about the direction the conference has taken over the years.

Certainly, a Big 12 style O can be defended. My point is, we see this type of scheme every week. It's a pinball wizard diet of 7/7 drills run amok. OU has now gone to a 3-3-5 as our base D to counter these spread the field O's. Another problem the spread O's has caused in our recruiting area is the dirth of quality DL recruits in Texas. The state used to be a RB/LB producing machine. Now it's all about QB's, WR's, & DB's. When you continually practice against a passing attack it will weaken your D. Defending a strong running attack daily in practice strengthens your D.

I would not call the Florida wth Tebow remotely similar to the schemes we see in the Big 12. Tebow was more of a single-wing tailback. He was no passer in comparison to the QB's we have traditionally seen over the past few years in the Big 12. Anyway, it was an entertaining game and the Tide is to be congratulated on the win. As I said, Kyle Field is a tough place to play under any circumstances. You all should be on your way now.
Way to step it back up. Good post! BS! RTR!!!
 

BamaDMD

Hall of Fame
Sep 10, 2007
5,446
834
137
Rainsville Al
I think you missed the point that there's not a Manziel, RGIII or Young hiding behind every Russian Thistle. Also, Manziel is a very much improved player over last year. The escapability is about the same, but the guy has turned into a helluva pinpoint passer. Last year, I didn't think he was an NFL prospect. I've changed my mind. He's like a Drew Brees with more wheels. I frankly don't think he's as tall as Brees, from seeing him next to players of whom I know the correct height. However, I think some team - this next April - will find him attractive...

This. ^

while I respect you're opinions and agree with much of it, Manziel is truly the "Twelve'th Man".
 

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