Lack of a dominant pass rush is more schematic than talent!

Skeeterpop

Hall of Fame
Jul 18, 2008
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Every year for several now there has been post after post of our poor pass rush or lack of sacks, etc. Here is my .02 cents worth on the topic and since I have played, coached and watched the game of football for 30+ years I feel like i have a pretty decent technical, practical and creative knowledge of all aspects of the game. Since Saban has arrived we have not had what most would call a dominant pass rusher from a statistical glance. Think about this for a minute. Do you really think Saban does not know how to identify talented pass rushers? Of course not! He is one of the best talent evaluators to ever coach in college. So there has to be other reasons.


First, we can argue all day long whether sacks or QB pressure is more important. They both can be very effective and productive for a defense. It starts out with the fact we run a 3-4 defense so our ends tend to be larger than most teams ends who run a 4-3. Sure we use a Jack/LB hybrid as well. But you have to remember even this type player is not a pure pass rusher in most cases. They are usually smaller, faster and more talented players that can rush,run stop and cover WR's. So they are not lining up on the line everyday working on their pass rushing skills 100%.


Second, why dont we seem to get the top pass rush recruits year in and year out. Once again this is mostly because of Saban's defensive philosophy and scheme. He wants players to play gap control and assignment responsible football. Not pin their ears back every play to sack the QB. Most top pass rush recruits have a "me first attitude". They want the big sack numbers and dont care about the 90% of the time when they run themselves out of the play because they are only focussed on the QB. Therefore, those type players look for a 4-3 team with less handcuffs on their position responsibilities.


Third, you may think this one is not important but its huge for a Saban defensive player. Saban wants talented and skilled players of course but he wants "team players" and "intelligent" players on the defensive side of the ball. This also limits some talented recruits and is the reason we see so many talented recruits on the defensive side of the ball never make the field or contribute. You have to have both talent and smarts to play defense for Saban.


IMO we will never have a pass rusher at Bama under Saban who averages 12-15+ sacks a year. Its just not how he wants to play the game. And his way has been as successful as anyones!
 
Last edited:

danb

All-SEC
Dec 4, 2011
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Saban stated on the Nick Saban Show in regards to stats, that the QB sack stat is one of the least important in regards to winning games. The turnover stat was the most important IIRC......

The man's record speaks for itself, so I'll take his word for it..
 

BamaPokerplayer

All-American
Oct 10, 2004
3,112
149
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Saban stated on the Nick Saban Show in regards to stats, that the QB sack stat is one of the least important in regards to winning games. The turnover stat was the most important IIRC......

The man's record speaks for itself, so I'll take his word for it..
Also the infamous press conference. I can't remember if it was before or after North Texas.
 

davefrat

Hall of Fame
Jun 4, 2002
5,166
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Hopewell, VA
the strange thing about our defenses under saban/smart is that although they have been dominant defenses, they have also had a good bit of "bend but don't break." I have long recognized/believed that a dominant pass rush is less important to our defense than controlling the pocket. it's frustrating, but i'm not going to question saban and smart.
 

BigEasyTider

FB | REC Moderator
Nov 27, 2007
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the strange thing about our defenses under saban/smart is that although they have been dominant defenses, they have also had a good bit of "bend but don't break.".
I would disagree with that a good bit. That was certainly the case last year and this year -- when honestly we've had a bit of down years defensively, particularly in pass defense -- but when we are at our best that's just not the case at all. Our 2009 and 2011 defenses not only didn't bend, they barely even yielded an inch. Unfortunately the defenses we've fielded the past two years just haven't been up to that level.
 

alwayshavebeen

All-SEC
Sep 22, 2013
1,213
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North Carolina
Every year for several now there has been post after post of our poor pass rush or lack of sacks, etc. Here is my .02 cents worth on the topic and since I have played, coached and watched the game of football for 30+ years I feel like i have a pretty decent technical, practical and creative knowledge of all aspects of the game. Since Saban has arrived we have not had what most would call a dominant pass rusher from a statistical glance. Think about this for a minute. Do you really think Saban does not know how to identify talented pass rushers? Of course not! He is one of the best talent evaluators to ever coach in college. So there has to be other reasons.


First, we can argue all day long whether sacks or QB pressure is more important. They both can be very effective and productive for a defense. It starts out with the fact we run a 3-4 defense so our ends tend to be larger than most teams ends who run a 4-3. Sure we use a Jack/LB hybrid as well. But you have to remember even this type player is not a pure pass rusher in most cases. They are usually smaller, faster and more talented players that can rush,run stop and cover WR's. So they are not lining up on the line everyday working on their pass rushing skills 100%.


Second, why dont we seem to get the top pass rush recruits year in and year out. Once again this is mostly because of Saban's defensive philosophy and scheme. He wants players to play gap control and assignment responsible football. Not pin their ears back every play to sack the QB. Most top pass rush recruits have a "me first attitude". They want the big sack numbers and dont care about the 90% of the time when they run themselves out of the play because they are only focussed on the QB. Therefore, those type players look for a 4-3 team with less handcuffs on their position responsibilities.


Third, you may think this one is not important but its huge for a Saban defensive player. Saban wants talented and skilled players of course but he wants "team players" and "intelligent" players on the defensive side of the ball. This also limits some talented recruits and is the reason we see so many talented recruits on the defensive side of the ball never make the field or contribute. You have to have both talent and smarts to play defense for Saban.


IMO we will never have a pass rusher at Bama under Saban who averages 12-15+ sacks a year. Its just not how he wants to play the game. And his way has been as successful as anyones!
That is one of the best observations I have read and totally agree. Not that Saban would turn down the guy at S. Carolina or Ole Miss but he coaches gap responsibility and it works pretty darn good. Good Post!
 

tide13

BamaNation Citizen
Nov 18, 2002
91
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Birmingham
Well said, and thanks for the opinions. It can be frustrating that we don't get a little more pressure on the QB. I don't mind so much the lack of sacks as much as I'd just like to see us pressure QBs into quick decisions.

I as much as anyone would like to see us get a Clowney-type player. However, now I'm wondering how well a player like that would fit with our defensive mindset, even with all his talent....
 

BigEasyTider

FB | REC Moderator
Nov 27, 2007
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Saban stated on the Nick Saban Show in regards to stats, that the QB sack stat is one of the least important in regards to winning games...
Saban has stated several times in the past that while sacking the quarterback was not particularly important, affecting throws with pressure was critical. That has always been distinction. He doesn't care so much about the actual sack as he does disturbing QB timing, footwork, and comfort, and generally knocking the QB around.

Problem was against CSU we didn't really do any of that. Forget about sacks, but if I recall correctly CSU ran about 45 pass plays, and we only really affected a handful of throws with pressure. His uniform was pretty clean all the way until the final snap of the game.
 

JTBama

All-American
Jul 2, 2005
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Saban has stated several times in the past that while sacking the quarterback was not particularly important, affecting throws with pressure was critical. That has always been distinction. He doesn't care so much about the actual sack as he does disturbing QB timing, footwork, and comfort, and generally knocking the QB around.

Problem was against CSU we didn't really do any of that. Forget about sacks, but if I recall correctly CSU ran about 45 pass plays, and we only really affected a handful of throws with pressure. His uniform was pretty clean all the way until the final snap of the game.
You're right, sacks may not be as important but pressuring the quarterback and rushing his decision is. This is something we haven't seen.
 

theBIGyowski

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Aug 4, 2005
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The defenses in 2012 and this year so far have been amazing at stopping the run (gave up one big play against Va Tech and you can't stop Manziel) but we tend to give up the big plays in the passing game. If you look at what A&M did...it wasn't really ball control...but was just big time throws down field. Same thing happened last year against UGA.

I will agree though that we seem to have a hard time affecting the QB this year. If you don't have amazing DBs...you can't give a QB 3-5 seconds to sit in the pocket or he will find someone open. You don't need sacks to stop a QB...but you do need pressure. If a QB is going through his receivers on a certain play...and starts feeling pressure from the left...he will move to his right and will more than likely eliminate the receiver on the left side of the field...making less players for the defense to defend. Moving a QB out of his comfort zone on a play can mess up timing and may also keep a QB from seeing a safety which could result in throwing an INT.

I tend to think that a 3-4 is easier to block at the LOS...but having 4 LBs that can blitz a gap is much more difficult for the OL to read and prepare for. It's easy to put a hat on a hat when it's OL vs DL...but not so much when LBs can come storming in. But hey...that's just my $0.02.
 

Bamabuzzard

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Aug 15, 2004
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I think part of the problem is we haven't had many players with that natural ability to get to the quarterback on blitzes. I can't tell you how many times I've see us blitz and the blitzing player or players totally miss the open hole leading to the qb. I remember very vividly Saban's defenses at LSU. His defense's kept constant pressure on the quarterback with blitz after blitz after blitz. His scheme isn't designed to get a lot of sacks from the DT's or maybe DE's. But his defense is designed to put pressure on the qb. We haven't had many players with that natural instinct of doing it.
 

danb

All-SEC
Dec 4, 2011
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Saban has stated several times in the past that while sacking the quarterback was not particularly important, affecting throws with pressure was critical. That has always been distinction. He doesn't care so much about the actual sack as he does disturbing QB timing, footwork, and comfort, and generally knocking the QB around.

Problem was against CSU we didn't really do any of that. Forget about sacks, but if I recall correctly CSU ran about 45 pass plays, and we only really affected a handful of throws with pressure. His uniform was pretty clean all the way until the final snap of the game.
Yes he also stated hurrying the QB was vital during that segment on the NSS....I couldn't elaborate more on my previous post.....I was sneaking a post while at work and had to post quick!!

Thanks for elaborating on that!!
 

theBIGyowski

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Aug 4, 2005
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How many times did Pagan get to Manziel...but somehow by divine intervention...he was able to scurry away? I think we are making progress...but just not finishing.
 

bamaslammer

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Jan 8, 2003
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They sure did pressure the crap out of us when he was at LSU.
Someone explain this one to me. I went to all the Alabama LSU games because Alabama fans would offload those tickets easy since we were not only going to lose, but lose huge. Here is how our offense worked against LSU, Hike 1,2, Blam! Quarterback is down again. I agree that rushing Manziel is a BAD idea. He's just too elusive and he plays better when he's running around like a maniac. But the CSU quarterback could have memorized proverbs back there he had so much time.
 

RTR91

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Nov 23, 2007
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Someone explain this one to me. I went to all the Alabama LSU games because Alabama fans would offload those tickets easy since we were not only going to lose, but lose huge. Here is how our offense worked against LSU, Hike 1,2, Blam! Quarterback is down again. I agree that rushing Manziel is a BAD idea. He's just too elusive and he plays better when he's running around like a maniac. But the CSU quarterback could have memorized proverbs back there he had so much time.
Because of this guy...

 

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