Pope asks for help understanding God's message

chanson78 · Nov 11, 2013

This may be a bit sensationalist for a title, but I think it accurately and succinctly describes what is going on here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/09/w...eeks-laity-comment-on-family-issues.html?_r=0

So in essence the Catholic Church is issuing a survey to its parishioners regarding everything from gay marriage, contraception, and even receiving sacraments after parishioners get a divorce and remarry.

Catholicism for Dummies said:
When the pope teaches a doctrine on faith or morals to the universal Church in his unique office as supreme head, he is held to be infallible, incapable of error. When the pope asserts his official authority in matters of faith and morals to the whole church, Catholics believe the Holy Spirit guards him from error.

http://m.dummies.com/how-to/content/the-catholic-pope-his-job-and-how-hes-elected.html

Ok so sure this is a silly reference but for the most part from official websites this is in essence what his job is.

Here is my question. How can anyone ever believe that a religious institution really has divine inspiration when they are willing to put what have traditionally been cornerstones of dogma up for what amounts to a democratic vote? That is of course assuming that after the results of the survey come back they make changes.

JBama_in_PCOLA · Nov 11, 2013

This is just dumb and I can't stand their portrayal of the bible. They make such a mockery of it.

Sent from my iPhone

Al A Bama · Nov 11, 2013

chanson78 said:
This may be a bit sensationalist for a title, but I think it accurately and succinctly describes what is going on here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/09/w...eeks-laity-comment-on-family-issues.html?_r=0

So in essence the Catholic Church is issuing a survey to its parishioners regarding everything from gay marriage, contraception, and even receiving sacraments after parishioners get a divorce and remarry.

http://m.dummies.com/how-to/content/the-catholic-pope-his-job-and-how-hes-elected.html

Ok so sure this is a silly reference but for the most part from official websites this is in essence what his job is.

Here is my question. How can anyone ever believe that a religious institution really has divine inspiration when they are willing to put what have traditionally been cornerstones of dogma up for what amounts to a democratic vote? That is of course assuming that after the results of the survey come back they make changes.

Instead of consulting the sinning masses for advise, I think maybe he needs to consult with the Holy Bible, I guess the Catholic version.

Are the masses going to vote to ban sinning and that anything goes, maybe pedophiles can be priests, whores can be saints and priests?

The jury is still out on this Pope. The Holy Bible should be his guide. I'll be looking at what changes he makes after the survey.

seebell · Nov 11, 2013

I find the new Pope refreshing. As far as the changes, can't God, speaking through the Pope, change His/Her mind?

Bama Reb · Nov 11, 2013

I thought the purpose of the Pope was to instruct others on God's message, not to ask them what they think it means.

chanson78 · Nov 11, 2013

seebell said:
I find the new Pope refreshing. As far as the changes, can't God, speaking through the Pope, change His/Her mind?

My point is more related to the fact that if something is wrong in gods eyes, his view on the matter doesn't change no matter what the masses say.

So for example, the Catholic Church has for a long time held that if you divorce you can not get remarried in the church. They were willing to fracture the church and let the Church of England be created instead of giving even an inch. For a very long time this is because due to the status of the pope as interpreter and clarifier of gods will on earth his position is infallible.

Here's where it gets dicey. To change now admits that the word of god that was passed down for the past 800 years was the wrong word of god. So either the pope really is gods interpreter or he is not, because I find that the liklihood god changed his mind on divorce/remarrying last Tuesdayip really hard to believe.

So all that being said, am I just reading too much into this or has this pope effectively undone all of the power consolidation with regards to divine interference that is afforded the clergy in the Catholic Church. Or is this yet another so called divine tenet that is being allowed to be morphed according to popular belief and we are witnessing the birth of a new hipper more welcoming Catholic Church?

seebell · Nov 11, 2013

The new Pope is more welcoming. Don't see why God can't change his mind, but how would he let us know?

chanson78 · Nov 11, 2013

seebell said:
The new Pope is more welcoming. Don't see why God can't change his mind, but how would he let us know?

This is what I don't understand. How can an omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent being change their mind based upon upon societal changes? That makes absolutely no sense. If you exist at all times then your version of morality would be the same no matter when you observe your experiment. (The experiment being us)

seebell · Nov 11, 2013

chanson78 said:
This is what I don't understand. How can an omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent being change their mind based upon upon societal changes? That makes absolutely no sense. If you exist at all times then your version of morality would be the same no matter when you observe your experiment. (The experiment being us)

I understand your point.
How bout;
Don't eat meat from cloven hooves. Keep disease from the tribe. No longer needed.
Marry brother's wife. Protection of the weak etc. No longer needed.
Don't spill your seed upon the ground. Maintain the numerical strenght of the tribe. No longer needed.
etc
etc
etc

GreatDanish · Nov 11, 2013

seebell said:
I understand your point.
How bout;
Don't eat meat from cloven hooves. Keep disease from the tribe. No longer needed.
Marry brother's wife. Protection of the weak etc. No longer needed.
Don't spill your seed upon the ground. Maintain the numerical strenght of the tribe. No longer needed.
etc
etc
etc

those were all laws for a nation for sanitation, safety, and well-being. Those are not "commandments" that God changed His mind on.
I don't know about the Pope, but he might just be seeking feedback on where Catholics stand. I am doubting that he is taking a democratic approach to God's commands.

alabama mike1 · Nov 11, 2013

IF you believe the Bible, there was only one perfect human and it's not the guy in Rome wearing a long robe, funny hat and red shoes. How can anyone being a priest and then being elected pope go from a sinful human being to being infallible? We all fall short, myself included. I guess it all comes down to is the Bible true? Do we read the scripture in context? Do we pick and choose or believe what it says? Big difference in religion and a relationship.

JBama_in_PCOLA · Nov 11, 2013

seebell said:
The new Pope is more welcoming. Don't see why God can't change his mind, but how would he let us know?

C'mon now. Catholicism is a joke and steadily getting worse. Like one poster said, it's all about relationship.

Sent from my iPhone

RhodeIslandRed · Nov 11, 2013

Interesting problem he has. I don't think the question the Pope has is what is morally correct, but rather, he seeks guidance for the problem at hand. I think it is similar to Moses handing the issue of divorce.

selmaborntidefan · Nov 11, 2013

chanson78 said:
My point is more related to the fact that if something is wrong in gods eyes, his view on the matter doesn't change no matter what the masses say.

So for example, the Catholic Church has for a long time held that if you divorce you can not get remarried in the church. They were willing to fracture the church and let the Church of England be created instead of giving even an inch. For a very long time this is because due to the status of the pope as interpreter and clarifier of gods will on earth his position is infallible.

Here's where it gets dicey. To change now admits that the word of god that was passed down for the past 800 years was the wrong word of god. So either the pope really is gods interpreter or he is not, because I find that the liklihood god changed his mind on divorce/remarrying last Tuesdayip really hard to believe.

So all that being said, am I just reading too much into this or has this pope effectively undone all of the power consolidation with regards to divine interference that is afforded the clergy in the Catholic Church. Or is this yet another so called divine tenet that is being allowed to be morphed according to popular belief and we are witnessing the birth of a new hipper more welcoming Catholic Church?

No, you're dead on right.

Gee, it could be that the Roman Catholic Church will now admit to being little more than a political organization that hides behind religion. I realize that summary sounds harsh to devout Catholics, and I have family members that have been or are in "the Church." But the good thing about adding an abstract concept called "tradition" is that you can then insist that God "added" to what was given. If you talk in enough circles, you can somehow change any concept you want into its exact opposite and insist that people of old were misunderstood.

I don't think (based on some of your prior posts) that you write from the aspect of being a Christian or a believer (my apology in advance if I am wrong), but your interpretation of what this means is dead-on accurate.

But the funny thing is that those of us who are not Catholic have always known this. It won't be the first time and it won't be the last. Just like the Mormon Church suddenly changed its view on black people the moment its tax exempt status was threatened, the RCC will do whatever necessary to increase the number of folks they can claim to represent politically.

MOAN · Nov 11, 2013

If anyone needs help or needs to belong to a religion to be able to have a personal relationship with God, then they deserve the lies and confusion not to mention the financial burdens heaped upon them. What are we talking about...billions...trillions? Eventually the wild beast will turn on the drunken harlot and devour her, bringing her to ruin!

With that kind of filthy Lucre and power how can the military-industrial complex not become jealous of Babylons "gold, precious stones and pearls"? Does the Pope see the end coming and not liking what he sees and is now seeking help? Who cares? Not this drunk for sure!!!

selmaborntidefan · Nov 11, 2013

MOAN said:
If anyone needs help or needs to belong to a religion to be able to have a personal relationship with God, then they deserve the lies and confusion not to mention the financial burdens heaped upon them. What are we talking about...billions...trillions? Eventually the wild beast will turn on the drunken harlot and devour her, bringing her to ruin!

With that kind of filthy Lucre and power how can the military-industrial complex not become jealous of Babylons "gold, precious stones and pearls"? Does the Pope see the end coming and not liking what he sees and is now seeking help? Who cares? Not this drunk for sure!!!

Oliver Stone, is that you?

Saint&Sinner · Nov 12, 2013

The NY Times is not exactly a religious friendly publication. The Pope would not be surveying the people to get an answer to what is morally or doctrinally correct. Has anyone seen the English version of the questions?

Jon · Nov 12, 2013

as an ex-catholic I kind of dig this Pope

Jon · Nov 12, 2013

BamainBoston said:
I think people are oversimplifying this. Catholic dogma is far more complicated than Protestant belief systems. There are certain things that are moral absolutes; they cannot change. The Catholic Church would never condone murder, for instance. But other things are open to change and flux. Priests can't get married, but that is a matter of tradition, not obligation. The Pope could change that tomorrow if he wanted. I also think it is possible the Church is gathering information on its believers positions in an effort to decide what they need to focus on most.

there is only 1 reason priests can't get married and it's money.

The church has been running around for hundreds of years telling people to have babies they can't afford. The church doesn't want to have to fund 7-8 of them for every priest.

Oh and there is a loophole here. Become an episcopalian priest, get married and then convert to catholic. My wifes family had a divorced priest in their parrish through this loophole

Bamabuzzard · Nov 12, 2013

The problem with many churches today and it doesn't matter the denomination is they've sold themselves to the mighty dollar and have put themselves in a position to have to change their beliefs in order to draw enough people in to pay all the bills they have managed to rack up.

This was a topic of study in our Wednesday night Bible study last year that got pretty heated. I have a very strong conviction on this topic and normally I ruffle the feathers of many of today's church goers. But oh well.

Pope asks for help understanding God's message

All-American

TideFans Legend

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Suspended

All-American

Hall of Fame

All-American

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

All-American

TideFans Legend

All-SEC

TideFans Legend

All-American

TideFans Legend

1st Team

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

FB Moderator

TideFans.shop - NEW Stuff!