Question: The future of Defensive Philosophy and the HUNH

Ldlane

Hall of Fame
Nov 26, 2002
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It is very obvious that the rules are not going to change to curb the HUNH and it's spreading East. Besides the obvious it should be banned stalwarts, Do we change our subbing philosophy, recruiting, etc....?
 

TexasBama

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Jan 15, 2000
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We ran a 4-2-5 most of the time yesterday. But we ended up a few times trying to cover a three back set with the 4 and 2. I think we're gonna have to learn to flex a safety.
 

CrimsonForce

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Dec 20, 2012
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I was saying basically the entire game that we needed LC and HaHa in the box. They didn't pass at all on us really so there was no point to keeping 2 safeties 15 yards off the line of scrimmage. They always had to come from 10-15 yards back to make the tackle. I thought that was one of the more obvious adjustments we could have made and didn't. I don't think they would have rushed for nearly as much with our 2 safeties in the box. I would rather take a chance on nick Marshall having to complete 20-25 passes to beat us rather than let them run for over 300 yards.
 

imaloyalone

Super Moderator
Jan 9, 2005
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It is very obvious that the rules are not going to change to curb the HUNH and it's spreading East. Besides the obvious it should be banned stalwarts, Do we change our subbing philosophy, recruiting, etc....?
This is a very relevant question… the HUNH has become the "great equalizer" in CFB today. As long as the offense doesn't sub, it can go as fast as it wants… allowing the defense NO time to make substitutions. In that type of game, it boils down to "11 on 11"… and superior depth is a moot point. In that scheme, what AU does is probably the most effective game plan… wear on a defense for 10-12 plays and eventually player fatigue will evolve into a lack of discipline with a key player (see #42 yesterday on Marshall's last TD).

As such, you've got to change your recruiting strategy. No longer can you go after defensive guys who are seen as "specialty players" (aka "do one thing great")… you have to go after the guys who have potential to be multi-talented (similar to our Jack position). And, that has to play out in the conditioning area also… stamina is as important as strength in that game. IMO, this is frustrating to Saban because he's a thinker/planner… and wants to utilize personnel that will be a matchup nightmare for the offense. He and other defensive-minded coaches are going to reach the point they can't use their skills any longer. When that happens, I see guys like Saban looking at a game that isn't "football" any longer… and I see those guys saying "there's no way I can stop it with the current rules in place". When you reach that point, what do you do? That's the time when most will step away IMO. Look for that as a trend in CFB… the dying breed called "defensive-minded coaches".
 

TiderMan

All-SEC
Feb 5, 2005
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If we kick FG's and convert some short yardage situations on offense, we win going away and no one really questions our defense. Those mistakes kept AU in the game and ultimately put them in a position to make a play to win the game.

However, the game plan to beat Bama in the present and probably future is to do the mis-direction / hurry up / no huddle attack. There are possibly only one or two teams that can physically attack us on defense by matching us athlete for athlete (LSU and FSU). Everyone else has to be creative and run something we aren't used to seeing and uses our agressiveness against us.
 

Bamabuzzard

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The answer to the riddle of these type offenses is penetration in the backfield. I can't remember the commentators for the Oregon Stanford game but one of them said penetration kills the spread HUNH offenses. Our current defense doesn't produce penetration by the down linemen. I think we might want to change that approach. I know they don't grow on trees but we need explosive, penetrating type DT's.


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Ldlane

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Nov 26, 2002
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I really don't care for 34-28 games. How do we keep the other team from out scoring us?

Are you saying that there is no need for change? If that is so I don't agree. This has been and is an Achilles heel of our system. Although Aubie runs a different type of schematic attack than Ole Miss or TAMU we still are on our heels. Our defense has trouble catching up to game speed against teams like this in the 1st Quarter and coming out of Half-Time.


If we kick FG's and convert some short yardage situations on offense, we win going away and no one really questions our defense. Those mistakes kept AU in the game and ultimately put them in a position to make a play to win the game.

However, the game plan to beat Bama in the present and probably future is to do the mis-direction / hurry up / no huddle attack. There are possibly only one or two teams that can physically attack us on defense by matching us athlete for athlete (LSU and FSU). Everyone else has to be creative and run something we aren't used to seeing and uses our agressiveness against us.
 
Last edited:

imaloyalone

Super Moderator
Jan 9, 2005
3,344
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132
Northport, AL
I really don't care for 34-28 games. How do we keep the other team from out scoring us?

Are you saying that there is no need for change? If that is so I don't agree. This has been and is an Achilles heel or our system. Although Aubie runs a different type of schematic attack than Ole Miss or TAMU we still are on our heels. Our defense has trouble catching up to game speed against teams like this in the 1st Quarter and coming out of Half-Time.
It was telling yesterday and against Texas A&M that when the hurry-up was in full force, we'd lose discipline at some point… and exhaustion leads directly to that. The game is evolving to an offensive game - defenses will not be able to completely stop other teams, just slow them down for one out of every two drives.
 

rgw

Suspended
Sep 15, 2003
20,852
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Tuscaloosa
The biggest problem with Saban's scheme v. the spread-you-out tempo offense is the immense amount of checks and sight adjustments paired with the huge responsibilities he lays on the safeties and linebackers in coverage. Theoretically Saban has a defensive answer for everything our opponent wants to do but the tempo prevents Saban's sub packages and the ability to get into a crafted defense for the offense look and tendency. The teams that have the most success against spread tempo offenses tend to play dirt-simple schemes predicated on execution.


You don't see LSU as terribly out of position against the run when playing TAMU or Auburn because they don't put so much on their LBs and just let them know their roles and react to what it happening. Alabama got ate up by Auburn due to guys not being comfortable in what they were doing because it changed at every motion Auburn performed. Our LBs and safeties were timid and out of position for the majority of Auburn's IZR/OZR runs yesterday accordingly. The reality is that the Sumlin and Malzahn offenses are killing Saban's defensive philosophy and it is a matter of if he's big enough to realize it and adjust. It is better to be really good at executing simple at a high level because the tempo is going to force that hand than being really good at executing complex at a high level and rarely being able to use it. Malzahn even took away our ability to kick off a drive with a big stop to work the down and distance in our favor by doing that quick huddle break snap play every drive start.


We don't have to go small to stop the spread. Some of the better defenses across the nation against the spread run big defenses but they also play a lot of cover 4 where they don't overtax their linebackers in coverage responsibilities.
 

Ldlane

Hall of Fame
Nov 26, 2002
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True. You notice that LSU had success against API because they had that disruptive DL.

The answer to the riddle of these type offenses is penetration in the backfield. I can't remember the commentators for the Oregon Stanford game but one of them said penetration kills the spread HUNH offenses. Our current defense doesn't produce penetration by the down linemen. I think we might want to change that approach. I know they don't grow on trees but we need explosive, penetrating type DT's.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

theballguy

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Nov 5, 2012
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The answer to the riddle of these type offenses is penetration in the backfield. I can't remember the commentators for the Oregon Stanford game but one of them said penetration kills the spread HUNH offenses. Our current defense doesn't produce penetration by the down linemen. I think we might want to change that approach. I know they don't grow on trees but we need explosive, penetrating type DT's.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Bamabuzzard, this is the only thing I think we look into if anything at all. Yeah it can be a great equalizer for the Utah's, Boise's, Oregon's of the world vs above average teams but I don't think it matters over long haul against the Alabama's, Stanford's and even now FSU's out there who play a stout defense.

As Tiderman alludes to, if we play our game, this stuff won't/shouldn't matter. We need to be successful with this because also it draws in top players who do want to play in the NFL. Other than trying to get better down lineman rushers, better kickers, more QB's like McCarron, more guys like O.J. Howard (which you can bet CNS and his team are already working on), why change *anything*?

I am certainly ok with winning 11-12 games a season sandwiched by NC's. I am convinced we are not doing anything wrong here.
 

TiderMan

All-SEC
Feb 5, 2005
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I am not saying there does not need to be a change but too many bad decisions are made in the heat of the moment or after a tough loss. We need to evaluate what we did wrong or what we did not execute correctly and make an appropriate decision. Saban and the coaches will get this figured out. After they scored to open the half, we stopped them 4-5 straight times in the 2nd half and had chances to close the game out. We did not finish in the last 8 minutes of the game. Some of that was due to players not doing their job, coaching decisions, and just being outplayed during that time. All I am saying is that there were more issues that just defense yesterday.


I really don't care for 34-28 games. How do we keep the other team from out scoring us?

Are you saying that there is no need for change? If that is so I don't agree. This has been and is an Achilles heel of our system. Although Aubie runs a different type of schematic attack than Ole Miss or TAMU we still are on our heels. Our defense has trouble catching up to game speed against teams like this in the 1st Quarter and coming out of Half-Time.
 

Ldlane

Hall of Fame
Nov 26, 2002
14,253
398
102
I'm looking at the overall picture of the future. To we keep the complicated Nickel Schemes (Which I love) or do we do some tweaking to handle these problematic offenses. There has to be some sort of Defensive "Evolution" to meet the demands of new offensive philosophies and athletes. Not hung up on yesterdays loss. The losses we've had have been to these sorts of teams. I mean I'm happy with our team, staff, etc.... but there is always room for improvement. I know CNS thinks that way also.

I am not saying there does not need to be a change but too many bad decisions are made in the heat of the moment or after a tough loss. We need to evaluate what we did wrong or what we did not execute correctly and make an appropriate decision. Saban and the coaches will get this figured out. After they scored to open the half, we stopped them 4-5 straight times in the 2nd half and had chances to close the game out. We did not finish in the last 8 minutes of the game. Some of that was due to players not doing their job, coaching decisions, and just being outplayed during that time. All I am saying is that there were more issues that just defense yesterday.
 

CoastGhost

Suspended
Sep 5, 2009
5,650
80
67
North Carolina
Lots of leg cramps, headaches, lost contacts ... whatever - prove my man is not hurt if you want to run your gimmick loop-d-loop offense. Either that or quit crying and line up.
 

rgw

Suspended
Sep 15, 2003
20,852
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Tuscaloosa
I think the key is to get dirt simple against spread tempo teams. Complicated is what got Alabama hosed up front yesterday.
 

CrimsonProf

Hall of Fame
Dec 30, 2006
5,716
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Birmingham, Alabama
I really don't care for 34-28 games. How do we keep the other team from out scoring us?

Are you saying that there is no need for change? If that is so I don't agree. This has been and is an Achilles heel of our system. Although Aubie runs a different type of schematic attack than Ole Miss or TAMU we still are on our heels. Our defense has trouble catching up to game speed against teams like this in the 1st Quarter and coming out of Half-Time.

I see your point, but those aren't wild numbers.

I'm sorry, y'all, but I'm not interested in 10-7 games.
 

Padreruf

Hall of Fame
Feb 12, 2001
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What was most troubling was their ability to gash us up the middle. If we stop that then we can handle the corners. With the ends/olb's having to help out in the middle we were at a distinct disadvantage.
 

bamadws56

All-SEC
Sep 24, 2005
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i think some change on the recruiting front will help. We say we run a 3-4 over/under. But we run a 4-2-5 much more often than a true 3-4. If that is the case, then we don't run a 3-4 over/under and shouldn't recruit players for it, we should recruit for a 4-2-5. I understand that there is some crossover with players who can do both. Right now I think the defensive line is where it hurts the most, followed closely by the linebackers.
 

theballguy

Hall of Fame
Nov 5, 2012
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I really don't care for 34-28 games. How do we keep the other team from out scoring us?

Are you saying that there is no need for change? If that is so I don't agree. This has been and is an Achilles heel of our system. Although Aubie runs a different type of schematic attack than Ole Miss or TAMU we still are on our heels. Our defense has trouble catching up to game speed against teams like this in the 1st Quarter and coming out of Half-Time.
Right but so far, which teams have handled the teams who do this the best? I'd offer Bama and Stanford. Not saying we shouldn't try to get better but we beat guys like this most of the team believe it or not.
 

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