Question: The future of Defensive Philosophy and the HUNH

Ldlane

Hall of Fame
Nov 26, 2002
14,253
398
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So basically what we are saying collectively is:

1. You need a Pass Rusher.

2. You need speed on the outside to defense the pitch or QB Keeper.

3. Discipline/Assignment Defense.

4. Not so many Substitution Packages!

Where is the wishbone now? Gone.

Why? Too much speed at the OLB and S positions, mostly, but also DE.

Georgia Tech is the only major, non-Service Academy program running a pure triple-option and/or wishbone right now to my knowledge. The moment they put that offense in, their recruiting went in the drink. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy: Superior talent makes any system work, but if you are recruiting to a system that doesn't prepare players for the pros, they stop coming. Once they stop coming, you no longer have superior talent. The NFL has one team with a zone-read base (Philadelphia; Seattle and Washington both use elements of it but they're West Coast offenses by trade). Philly, while having a pretty good year record-wise, has already gotten its top 2 QBs hurt. Until the NFL starts keeping 4 or 5 QBs on the active roster, the HUNH won't last because every defender on the field is capable of beheading the QB, which is not the case for even a good college team.

We were having this same discussion back around 2007-2008 about the spread-option. While several teams still use it, it didn't take over all of football. The HUNH won't either.
 
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bamagradinATL

All-American
Sep 12, 2006
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So basically what we are saying collectively is:

1. You need a Pass Rusher.

2. You need speed on the outside to defense the pitch or QB Keeper.

3. Discipline/Assignment Defense.

4. Not so many Substitution Packages!
IMO, if we would have done a better job with #3, the outcome would have been different.
 

AlexanderFan

Hall of Fame
Jul 23, 2004
11,076
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What rules are being bent/broken? I really don't know, but would like to learn.



Substitution, formation, being set and then moving. Blocking downfield on passing plays. In the worst cases defenses aren't allowed to substitute even though the offense did. The formations are extremely close to being illegal with the number of players on the line of scrimmage. The linemen all move and twist right before the snap, they are supposed to be set for one full second....
 

bamaslaw

All-SEC
Jan 16, 2005
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I think the main thing they need is more exposure to the speed at which you have to make adjustments. I'm sure we have defenses that on the chalkboard win every time against the plays Auburn runs, but we're not getting in to them.

IMO, our defenders need to get used to the frustration the HUNH causes. In football, you have to have the "short memory" to line up and play again. Against the HUNH, that's got to be even shorter. Most of the mistakes that I saw against it (granted, I was in the upper deck) seemed to be "frustration" type mistakes - where one guy got beat the play before and now someone is trying to cheat because they don't trust him to do his job again. When you get a chance to huddle, you can compose your self and teammates and go again - when it happens quick you don't get a chance to do that.
 

257WBY

Suspended
Aug 20, 2011
2,077
1
0
Where is the wishbone now? Gone.

Why? Too much speed at the OLB and S positions, mostly, but also DE.

Georgia Tech is the only major, non-Service Academy program running a pure triple-option and/or wishbone right now to my knowledge. The moment they put that offense in, their recruiting went in the drink. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy: Superior talent makes any system work, but if you are recruiting to a system that doesn't prepare players for the pros, they stop coming. Once they stop coming, you no longer have superior talent. The NFL has one team with a zone-read base (Philadelphia; Seattle and Washington both use elements of it but they're West Coast offenses by trade). Philly, while having a pretty good year record-wise, has already gotten its top 2 QBs hurt. Until the NFL starts keeping 4 or 5 QBs on the active roster, the HUNH won't last because every defender on the field is capable of beheading the QB, which is not the case for even a good college team.

We were having this same discussion back around 2007-2008 about the spread-option. While several teams still use it, it didn't take over all of football. The HUNH won't either.
When I watch Navy compete with ND with vastly inferior talent, I certainly can't write the wishbone off. Georgia Southern ran a triple option to the tune of 400 yards against one of the best defenses in the nation in Florida and actually beat them. I do agree that players want to be in certain systems. But just think how exciting Alabama would be if they spread those talented WRs out on every play with a QB like AJ. I don't think you'd have any trouble getting WRs to come to Alabama. I guess I'll just sit back Saturday and realize how the HUNH doesn't work, what with Mizzou and Aub playing in the SEC championship and all.
 

257WBY

Suspended
Aug 20, 2011
2,077
1
0
Peyton Manning is also a football savant that knows every other players' assignments better than they do. He uses the time that would normally be used in the huddle to make checks and re-checks to try and get the defense into a look he likes. Granted, this also limits the amount of substituting that can be done by the defense, but the reason he does it isn't to simply catch them off guard.
Don't you think AJ could've done the same thing on a college level this season? He really didn't need anyone calling his plays.
 

capnfrog

All-American
Aug 17, 2002
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When we 2nd guess the coaches on this forum, the players read it and then when a play is called on the field, the players will 2nd guess CNS and that indecision will cause more problems than any HUNH or triple option. I would imagine the coaches know more of the answers than all of us combined.
 

NationalTitles18

TideFans Legend
May 25, 2003
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When we 2nd guess the coaches on this forum, the players read it and then when a play is called on the field, the players will 2nd guess CNS and that indecision will cause more problems than any HUNH or triple option. I would imagine the coaches know more of the answers than all of us combined.
If their psyches are that fragile they probably shouldn't be playing football at that level. ​I hope the whole team doesn't quit after reading that.
 

BillDee

3rd Team
Sep 7, 2010
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Athens, GA
www.BillDunston.com
What rules are being bent/broken? I really don't know, but would like to learn.



Substitution, formation, being set and then moving. Blocking downfield on passing plays. In the worst cases defenses aren't allowed to substitute even though the offense did. The formations are extremely close to being illegal with the number of players on the line of scrimmage. The linemen all move and twist right before the snap, they are supposed to be set for one full second....
If all these rules are being broken, why are penalties not called?
 

crimsonaudio

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Sep 9, 2002
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When I watch Navy compete with ND with vastly inferior talent, I certainly can't write the wishbone off. Georgia Southern ran a triple option to the tune of 400 yards against one of the best defenses in the nation in Florida and actually beat them.
This is ONLY because the TO / wishbone is so rarely used anymore. Defenses have little time to prepare for it now (one week isn't enough). Its widespread use came to an end when more teams were running it so it made sense to spend more time in practice and film study breaking it down.

Against a defense that knows what to do it it's incredibly ineffective.
 

crimsonaudio

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When we 2nd guess the coaches on this forum, the players read it and then when a play is called on the field, the players will 2nd guess CNS and that indecision will cause more problems than any HUNH or triple option. I would imagine the coaches know more of the answers than all of us combined.
LOL
 

BamaMoon

Hall of Fame
Apr 1, 2004
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When I watch Navy compete with ND with vastly inferior talent, I certainly can't write the wishbone off. Georgia Southern ran a triple option to the tune of 400 yards against one of the best defenses in the nation in Florida and actually beat them. I do agree that players want to be in certain systems. But just think how exciting Alabama would be if they spread those talented WRs out on every play with a QB like AJ. I don't think you'd have any trouble getting WRs to come to Alabama. I guess I'll just sit back Saturday and realize how the HUNH doesn't work, what with Mizzou and Aub playing in the SEC championship and all.
257, We go three wide all the time with dynamic receivers and a great qb. But we also can go two tight-ends and do the power run game.

When you can do both well you can be practically unbeatable.

3 out of 4 NCs and in the running for 5 of the last 6 going back to 2008 suggests the pro-set we run works more than it fails.

Sure, you'll see the HUNH team have its 15 minutes of fame every now and then, but look who stays around and is in the running for NCs year after year.

Balance, like in almost every facet of life, is key.
 

RTR91

Super Moderator
Nov 23, 2007
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When we 2nd guess the coaches on this forum, the players read it and then when a play is called on the field, the players will 2nd guess CNS and that indecision will cause more problems than any HUNH or triple option. I would imagine the coaches know more of the answers than all of us combined.
 

257WBY

Suspended
Aug 20, 2011
2,077
1
0
This is ONLY because the TO / wishbone is so rarely used anymore. Defenses have little time to prepare for it now (one week isn't enough). Its widespread use came to an end when more teams were running it so it made sense to spend more time in practice and film study breaking it down.

Against a defense that knows what to do it it's incredibly ineffective.
I don't buy it. When you have a vastly less talented team like Georgia Southern dominate an ultra talented defense like Florida, there is something very good about the offense.
 

Just Win

All-SEC
Dec 22, 2003
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I was saying basically the entire game that we needed LC and HaHa in the box. They didn't pass at all on us really so there was no point to keeping 2 safeties 15 yards off the line of scrimmage. They always had to come from 10-15 yards back to make the tackle. I thought that was one of the more obvious adjustments we could have made and didn't. I don't think they would have rushed for nearly as much with our 2 safeties in the box. I would rather take a chance on nick Marshall having to complete 20-25 passes to beat us rather than let them run for over 300 yards.
Agree 100%. I wouldn't have minded them getting 300 yards passing if we could have held them under 50 yards rushing. Of course, it would take Marshall 5 to 7 games to get 300 yards passing.
 

crimsonaudio

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I don't buy it. When you have a vastly less talented team like Georgia Southern dominate an ultra talented defense like Florida, there is something very good about the offense.
"I think the wishbone is a very, very difficult offense to defend,,," CNS http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2011/10/hey_coach_why_dont_you_run_the.html
Is it safe to assume you've not studied the demise of the wishbone offense and why teams moved away from it?

Yes, it's difficult to defend when you only have a week to prepare - teams that see it often and prepare for it shut it down. For example, Wofford runs the triple option and held GaSouthern to 14 points this year.
 

Bamabuzzard

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"I think the wishbone is a very, very difficult offense to defend,,," CNS http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2011/10/hey_coach_why_dont_you_run_the.html
Then why did it go away for all these years? It went away because it was ran so much that defenses found an answer to it. But it's been out of the spot light for so long that a lot of these kids have zero experience in playing against it. Also, coaching staffs spend zero time preparing for it. So the ONE time you face an opponent who runs it you have less than a week to teach players who more than likely have never played against it how to defend it. It's called lack of familiarity. Not that it is such a great offense.
 
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