**Bama vs. Xavier Game Thread*

JTBama · Dec 26, 2013

BamaMTA06 said:
It has been, but the guys who can come in and producde right away are few and far between. The true centers that are game changers tend to go to the bigger schools. The worst recruiting miss in Coach Grant's tenure is Willie Cauley-Stein at Kentucky. He could have changed this team. We shouldn't have let him leave his official visit without a commitment.

I think there are a lot of big men who come in to programs and make a difference right away, they're just not chosing Bama. Grant has recruited height but the offensive skill set hasn't been there

RTR91 · Dec 26, 2013

Crimson1967 said:
As Yogi Berra said, if people don't want to come here, we can't stop them.

Everyone thought WCS was Bama's until Coach Cal called him with an offer. He never visited Lexington. I'm not sure a commitment would have prevented him from going to UK.

JTBama said:
I think there are a lot of big men who come in to programs and make a difference right away, they're just not chosing Bama. Grant has recruited height but the offensive skill set hasn't been there

Please name the players, the school they attend/attended, and how long they stayed. MTA's point is a valid one: the immediate-impact big guys go to the Duke's, UK's, KU's, UNC's, and the "basketball" schools for a season or two before going to the NBA.

I'm not satisfied with the way things have gone for the basketball team in recent years. However, I have yet to find a realistic solution, and I also realize the personnel issues Anthony Grant has faced.

JDCrimson · Dec 26, 2013

RTR91 said:
Everyone thought WCS was Bama's until Coach Cal called him with an offer. He never visited Lexington. I'm not sure a commitment would have prevented him from going to UK.

Please name the players, the school they attend/attended, and how long they stayed. MTA's point is a valid one: the immediate-impact big guys go to the Duke's, UK's, KU's, UNC's, and the "basketball" schools for a season or two before going to the NBA.

I'm not satisfied with the way things have gone for the basketball team in recent years. However, I have yet to find a realistic solution, and I also realize the personnel issues Anthony Grant has faced.

A lot of schools play without a 5 in the lineup some even figure out a way to play without a 4 in the lineup and still win. I think CMG has recognized that he isnt going to be able to get a big that is going to be an instant contributor and has tried to develop his team from the perimeter. However, the players he thought would be scorers (based on their HS track record) have not turned out.

IMO, with the way rosters in basketball change so much due to transfers and how 1 or 2 players can change the whole dynamic of your team, it seems that basketball coach contracts ought to be re-worked for more pay but less of a buyout, etc so a school can make a change without much downside risk. If this were the case, you could take a chance for a couple of years on an upcoming coach. If by the 2-3 season you havent seen appreciable improvement - jettison him and look at someone else. Because the way it is now a lot of players, even the marginal ones, think they are going to the NBA and will put in 1 year and if they arent satisfied with their PT, development, or exposure they are moving on similar to what happens in AAU all the time.

JTBama · Dec 26, 2013

RTR91 said:
Everyone thought WCS was Bama's until Coach Cal called him with an offer. He never visited Lexington. I'm not sure a commitment would have prevented him from going to UK.

Please name the players, the school they attend/attended, and how long they stayed. MTA's point is a valid one: the immediate-impact big guys go to the Duke's, UK's, KU's, UNC's, and the "basketball" schools for a season or two before going to the NBA.

I'm not satisfied with the way things have gone for the basketball team in recent years. However, I have yet to find a realistic solution, and I also realize the personnel issues Anthony Grant has faced.

You just stated what I said, there are impact players available but are not choosing Bama, where did my statement different from that? Please explain....Sorry if I think differently on a topic than someone else.We all have different views on issues Never stated anyone's point was not valid. Here's a link showing some of the top big men and how they contribute. It doesn't really matter what class rank they are, if they're contributing as a freshman or senior. There are different reasons that contribute to the reason each player stays or goes, so the length a player stays doesn't discount the production he had when he was there.The point is they are contributing. The beauty of it is, some of the guys were not even highly ranked coming out of school but putting in solid numbers and making a difference.When I say big man, it doesn't have to be a 7 footer, there are 6'8 guys that play with that attitude who do the job nicely as well. A majority of teams work with three guards or three forwards. There are young big men playing forward and center making impacts on teams all over the NCAA. I don't think that's asking or implying too much at all.

Again we're not talking about domination out of high school, we're talking about a threat of scoring and a solid presence and threat down low within two to three years. Bama is in year 5 under CAG. That is all I am trying to say.

Bama Reb · Dec 26, 2013

JTBama said:
Alasippi, I agree with you on Grant needing to sign players who can shoot but one has to wonder when he will get that message and why he has not gotten it by now.

Yes, but...what recruiter in his right mind would sign any player who can't shoot?
And why is it that we keep hoping to attract players who can shoot but settling for those who can't?

RTR91 · Dec 26, 2013

JTBama said:
You just stated what I said, there are impact players available but are not choosing Bama, where did my statement different from that? Please explain....

You're talking about big men in general. MTA, who your post quoted, talked about guys that are immediate impact players. My point is simple: big guys that can make an immediate impact aren't coming to Alabama. They are going to a place many will call a "basketball" school for a year and head to the NBA.

Sorry if I think differently on a topic than someone else.We all have different views on issues Never stated anyone's point was not valid. Here's a link showing some of the top big men and how they contribute. It doesn't really matter what class rank they are, if they're contributing as a freshman or senior. There are different reasons that contribute to the reason each player stays or goes, so the length a player stays doesn't discount the production he had when he was there.The point is they are contributing. The beauty of it is, some of the guys were not even highly ranked coming out of school but putting in solid numbers and making a difference.When I say big man, it doesn't have to be a 7 footer, there are 6'8 guys that play with that attitude who do the job nicely as well. A majority of teams work with three guards or three forwards. That's not to consider the big men that play power forward that's on a different list.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...rs-for-2013-14-ncaa-basketball-season/page/13

Looking at that list, here's the top twenty with only their classification and school:

Sophomore, New Mexico State
Senior, Green Bay
Freshman, Florida
Sophomore, Virginia
Freshman, Kentucky
Sophomore, Arizona
Sophomore, St. John's
Senior, Georgetown
Sophomore, Colorado
Sophomore, Purdue
Senior, Stanford
Freshman, Kansas
Sophomore, Gonzaga
Junior, New Mexico
Sophomore, Kentucky
Senior, Florida
Sophomore, Baylor
Senior, Michigan State
Sophomore, Louisville
Sophomore, Michigan

I see four schools on that list that would be ranked below Alabama in terms of basketball's "elite" by the media or national observers: New Mexico State, Green Bay, Virginia and New Mexico.

NMSU's player is 7'5 and 350 pounds and according to your link can't get up and down the floor very fast. IOW, he's a fat Moussa Gaye that does more when he's ever in position.

Green Bay's player is a senior, which goes against what we're discussing: immediate impact players.

Virginia's big man is a sophomore from New York. Doubt he was coming to Tuscaloosa if he's from NY.

New Mexico's big guy is a junior. He took a RS last year. Again, not an immediate impact guy.

Bama got a transfer this summer. Michael Kessens should fit more of what folks want at 6'9, 215.

Look at the issues Grant has had with big men since being on campus:

Tony Mitchell: if you want to include him as a big man)
Carl Engstrom: played well last year prior to injury)
Moussa Gaye: was a very raw player prior to getting to campus and decided to transfer this year to a place that "fits his style better" for his senior year. Here are his stats for Valpo this season: 18.4 mins/game, 5.21 RPG, 2.14 blocks per game, 2.07 TO per game, and 5.29 PPG.
Devonta Pollard: struggled early in his freshman season after being highly recruited out of DeKalb, Mississippi; began to improve late in the season, especially in the NIT; left the team after being arrested in connection to his mother kidnapping a child.

So, Alabama needs a big man to fix the offense. Please point to a name on that list and put complete blame on Anthony Grant. Can he help Tony Mitchell was a mental case? Can he do anything to prevent Engstrom from tearing his ACL? Could he have done more to satisfy someone that wasn't contributing as much as the player felt he was? Can he stop a kid from lending his mom his car to kidnap a child?

BamaDynasty · Dec 26, 2013

Well stated. Nice research too RTR91!! I just hope we get a Buck Johnson, Bobby Lee Hurt, Derrick McKey (or even a Richard Hendrix) type pretty soon. I've love Bama hoops since I was 9-10 years old in 80-81 and hope we get back top being a fixture in the big dance. I love CAG and actually hope he has ONE MORE YEAR to turn it around. I think that decision in April 2014 will be Bill Battle's first huge personnel decision.

AlexD · Dec 26, 2013

Sorry but can't say Engstrom was doing well pre injury. He was not going to make much of a difference last year especially on the offensive side.

JTBama · Dec 26, 2013

Bama Reb said:
Yes, but...what recruiter in his right mind would sign any player who can't shoot?
And why is it that we keep hoping to attract players who can shoot but settling for those who can't?

Some coaches recruit athletes instead of shooters it happens all the time

Rama Jama · Dec 26, 2013

I think we are getting decent big men, but they are not getting any better when they get here. I always hear that we are an athletic team, but not particularly skilled. Our coaches are supposed to teach the kids the skills of basketball, but have we seen a big get any better during his time at Bama?

AlexD · Dec 26, 2013

I think we are getting decent big men, but they are not getting any better when they get here. I always hear that we are an athletic team, but not particularly skilled. Our coaches are supposed to teach the kids the skills of basketball, but have we seen a big get any better during his time at Bama?

To be honest have we seen anyone besides TR really improve?

JTBama · Dec 26, 2013

RTR91 said:
You're talking about big men in general. MTA, who your post quoted, talked about guys that are immediate impact players. My point is simple: big guys that can make an immediate impact aren't coming to Alabama. They are going to a place many will call a "basketball" school for a year and head to the NBA.

Looking at that list, here's the top twenty with only their classification and school:

Sophomore, New Mexico State
Senior, Green Bay
Freshman, Florida
Sophomore, Virginia
Freshman, Kentucky
Sophomore, Arizona
Sophomore, St. John's
Senior, Georgetown
Sophomore, Colorado
Sophomore, Purdue
Senior, Stanford
Freshman, Kansas
Sophomore, Gonzaga
Junior, New Mexico
Sophomore, Kentucky
Senior, Florida
Sophomore, Baylor
Senior, Michigan State
Sophomore, Louisville
Sophomore, Michigan

I see four schools on that list that would be ranked below Alabama in terms of basketball's "elite" by the media or national observers: New Mexico State, Green Bay, Virginia and New Mexico.

NMSU's player is 7'5 and 350 pounds and according to your link can't get up and down the floor very fast. IOW, he's a fat Moussa Gaye that does more when he's ever in position.

Green Bay's player is a senior, which goes against what we're discussing: immediate impact players.

Virginia's big man is a sophomore from New York. Doubt he was coming to Tuscaloosa if he's from NY.

New Mexico's big guy is a junior. He took a RS last year. Again, not an immediate impact guy.

Bama got a transfer this summer. Michael Kessens should fit more of what folks want at 6'9, 215.

Look at the issues Grant has had with big men since being on campus:

Tony Mitchell: if you want to include him as a big man)
Carl Engstrom: played well last year prior to injury)
Moussa Gaye: was a very raw player prior to getting to campus and decided to transfer this year to a place that "fits his style better" for his senior year. Here are his stats for Valpo this season: 18.4 mins/game, 5.21 RPG, 2.14 blocks per game, 2.07 TO per game, and 5.29 PPG.
Devonta Pollard: struggled early in his freshman season after being highly recruited out of DeKalb, Mississippi; began to improve late in the season, especially in the NIT; left the team after being arrested in connection to his mother kidnapping a child.

So, Alabama needs a big man to fix the offense. Please point to a name on that list and put complete blame on Anthony Grant. Can he help Tony Mitchell was a mental case? Can he do anything to prevent Engstrom from tearing his ACL? Could he have done more to satisfy someone that wasn't contributing as much as the player felt he was? Can he stop a kid from lending his mom his car to kidnap a child?

Where is anyone putting complete blame on CAG? Your offensive philosophy provides an example of what attracts which type of recruits signs with your program which was what I was implying about needing a low post presence. My original statement implied that the use of a low post scoring threat did not seem to be a strong point in CAG offense and emphasized the need for one but never said a freshman would come in and dominate. I think you have misunderstood my point.You asked for schools with contributing big men , you didn't, give limitations or approvals from you they had to meet. You also seemed very eager to find anything or something wrong with most players on that list, some of those guys are as you stated raw like Gueye . He transferred because of the offense ran by CAG.Other guys on that list resemble stats close to or even better than Engstrom from last year who you stated played very well? There have been some not so elite schools beat SEC schools plenty of times with those type guys.The end result is the product on the court and will be what decides his future. I was ecstatic when he was hired,but not sure he will be the long term solution now. We will respectfully agree to disagree.RTR...Happy New Year

JTBama · Dec 26, 2013

Rama Jama said:
I think we are getting decent big men, but they are not getting any better when they get here. I always hear that we are an athletic team, but not particularly skilled. Our coaches are supposed to teach the kids the skills of basketball, but have we seen a big get any better during his time at Bama?

Glad I am not the only one to see this too.

Rama Jama · Dec 26, 2013

Green was a skilled big, Mitchell was not really a big, but played like it. Since then we've haven't signed many except for Jacobs who I thought would be a glass eater, but he has not been able to rebound consistently. Engstrom and Gueye were projects from day1. We have 2 good ones this year in Taylor and Hale, but they both have limitations. Hale is the most skilled, but Taylor is a better rebounder at least at this point. Lets hope they both improve in a hurry.

One of the big reasons we have struggled is our PG play. There are people who see TR as a great player, but I don't see any leadership out of him on what should be HIS team. He seems to want to try to score regardless of what the defense is giving him. The best measure of an effective PG to me is assists and he is not even leading the team in that category with by far the most minutes per game of any player. Wimp would have a fit with a player like him. He'd never have seen the floor, ask Hollywood Robinson about being selfish and jacking up shots. I vividly remember Wimp pulling all 5 starters out when the effort was sub par.

JTBama · Dec 26, 2013

Rama Jama said:
Green was a skilled big, Mitchell was not really a big, but played like it. Since then we've haven't signed many except for Jacobs who I thought would be a glass eater, but he has not been able to rebound consistently. Engstrom and Gueye were projects from day1. We have 2 good ones this year in Taylor and Hale, but they both have limitations. Hale is the most skilled, but Taylor is a better rebounder at least at this point. Lets hope they both improve in a hurry.

One of the big reasons we have struggled is our PG play. There are people who see TR as a great player, but I don't see any leadership out of him on what should be HIS team. He seems to want to try to score regardless of what the defense is giving him. The best measure of an effective PG to me is assists and he is not even leading the team in that category with by far the most minutes per game of any player. Wimp would have a fit with a player like him. He'd never have seen the floor, ask Hollywood Robinson about being selfish and jacking up shots. I vividly remember Wimp pulling all 5 starters out when the effort was sub par.

Lets hope they put a good one together against ucla

bamacpa70 · Dec 27, 2013

The same things win, that always won... And we just have a different bunch of excuses if we lose.

derek4tide · Dec 27, 2013

I'm also getting tired of the "Alabama's not a basketball school" excuse. I grew up watching Coach Newton always field a good team. What about Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, Michigan, Ohio State, Florida State, Oregon, Missouri, etc?? These are not pure basketball schools, yet they put a quality team out there each year. Why can't Alabama? Coach Sanderson did, Coach Newton did.

bamacpa70 · Dec 27, 2013

derek4tide said:
I'm also getting tired of the "Alabama's not a basketball school" excuse. I grew up watching Coach Newton always field a good team. What about Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, Michigan, Ohio State, Florida State, Oregon, Missouri, etc?? These are not pure basketball schools, yet they put a quality team out there each year. Why can't Alabama? Coach Sanderson did, Coach Newton did.

Since you are already familiar with the "because we're not a basketball school" excuse, let me give you some other recurring themes that explain why Alabama can't field a quality team year in & year out that I'm sick of:

Because the refs are biased and always call more fouls on us.
Because we don't have a quality big man.
Because we don't have quality assistants.
Because we recruit players who can't shoot.
Because the University doesn't properly support the sport.
Because our fans dont pack Coleman.
Because we have lost players off the roster.

I'm sure I've missed several, these are just a few that leap to mind.

CrimsonProf · Dec 27, 2013

bamacpa70 said:
Since you are already familiar with the "because we're not a basketball school" excuse, let me give you some other recurring themes that explain why Alabama can't field a quality team year in & year out that I'm sick of:

Because the refs are biased and always call more fouls on us.
Because we don't have a quality big man.
Because we don't have quality assistants.
Because we recruit players who can't shoot.
Because the University doesn't properly support the sport.
Because our fans dont pack Coleman.
Because we have lost players off the roster.

I'm sure I've missed several, these are just a few that leap to mind.

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Blindside13 · Dec 27, 2013

Which one of the above excuses will we use tommorrow. Since it is a road game I will go with blame it on the refs. I hate to be so negative but it is hard to stay positive, with the teams we have put on the floor the last few years.

****Bama vs. Xavier Game Thread***

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**Bama vs. Xavier Game Thread*