The Tragedy of Theology: How Religion Caused and Extended the Dark Ages

Tidewater

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I agree that the problem was the marriage of church and state, which goes back to AD 381 with the Edict of Thessalonica, which made Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire.
I think that was just following earlier pagan precedent. Before that, Jupiter et al. was the official state religion. Had been for almost 1,000 years. Everyone was required to practice it and Roman scientific development came about under its auspices. "I have to check the chicken entrails before deciding whether to sail for Greece or not..."
The Golden Age was characterized by its tolerance, coexistence, and freedom of expression.
Within specified bounds, yes. Muslims were clearly and ubiquitously the preferred religious group. But others were tolerated, as long as they did not run afoul of the aforementioned rule.
I don't completely agree with wikipedia's stated reason for the end of the golden age, but it gives good information on the age itself.
Hulagu Khan sacking Baghdad (with its one million inhabitants) and killing all the men and selling all the women and children into slavery would be my argument as to the ending of the Islamic Golden Age. Again, it is hordes of invading ultra-violent, illiterate anti-intellectual barbarians that brought to a close a golden age of inquiry and intellectual development.
 

Probius

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I think that was just following earlier pagan precedent. Before that, Jupiter et al. was the official state religion. Had been for almost 1,000 years. Everyone was required to practice it and Roman scientific development came about under its auspices. "I have to check the chicken entrails before deciding whether to sail for Greece or not..."

Within specified bounds, yes. Muslims were clearly and ubiquitously the preferred religious group. But others were tolerated, as long as they did not run afoul of the aforementioned rule.
Hulagu Khan sacking Baghdad (with its one million inhabitants) and killing all the men and selling all the women and children into slavery would be my argument as to the ending of the Islamic Golden Age. Again, it is hordes of invading ultra-violent, illiterate anti-intellectual barbarians that brought to a close a golden age of inquiry and intellectual development.
The Romans were fairly tolerant of other religions until a disaster occurred, and they blamed the problem on the lack of sacrifice to the gods. Then you could continue to worship your own gods, just sacrifice to the Roman gods as well. The Romans also had so many gods because they picked up the gods of the nations they conquered. It wasn't great, but better than the Middle Ages.
 

jthomas666

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I think one of your problems is that you have a view of the Middle Ages constructed by Hollywood movies instead of reality.
[video=youtube;8ZD89CEO1Vk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8ZD89CEO1Vk[/video]

The people of the Middle Ages were actually very clean and bathed quite frequently...until the coming of the bubonic plague, when a fear of disease led many to abandon the practice until a relatively recent period.
France is the key holdout at the moment.
 

Probius

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I think one of your problems is that you have a view of the Middle Ages constructed by Hollywood movies instead of reality. The people of the Middle Ages were actually very clean and bathed quite frequently...until the coming of the bubonic plague, when a fear of disease led many to abandon the practice until a relatively recent period.
The plague was spread by fleas on the backs of rats. Basic cleanliness would have prevented this. However the general backward nature of the times, caused by The Church, led to a society steeped in dire poverty which lived in its own filth. Basic things like indoor plumbing and running water went away, and people disposed of their sewage in the streets.
 

Probius

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Protestant didn’t come into being until 1517, Religion wasn't nearly as popular during the dark ages as for some reason this article seems to believe. I can bet before 1400 you could find many villages that didn’t know anything about religion and, what is this Authors excuse for the rest of the world Asia, Africa etc.
People in the Middle Ages weren't theologians, but they knew you got into trouble by going against The Church.
 

Tide1986

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Right now, there are Christian fundamentalists actively supporting and propping up a regime in Uganda that is passing laws calling for the execution of all Homosexuals.
And don't you as a U.S. citizen prop up such governments/countries too? Saudi Arabia for example?
 

RammerJammer14

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I would like to hit a few points, and will try not to get carried away:

1) Much of the belief that "the Medieval Period was a Dark Age stagnated by religion" stems from arguments of the Protestant Reformation and after, where Protestants argued that science and progress was held back by a church rooted in mystical rituals. For example, the well known idea that before Columbus the world was thought to be flat. Progress before the reformation was ignored, so as to avoid giving credit. This was beneficial for obvious reasons, as the argument showed protestantism as based on logic and reason and catholicism as a backwards mystic religion to be avoided. This view became widely excepted, certainly in the english-speaking world.

2) I would actually argue that religion encouraged scientific advancement, stemming from the middle ages. Philosophers and Scientists felt compelled to study nature because it was a way of studying and understanding God's creation. For example, Roger Bacon, Thomas Aquinas, and Descartes.

3) With the chaos that occurred with the final sacking of Rome, the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, and the mass influx of war-like tribes, nearly all institutions collapsed. Christianity, in the form of the Church, was really the sole institution to remain. It can be persuasively argued that it was the backbone from which Western Europe climbed back from the ashes. Others have touches on this.

4) With the security of the Roman Empire gone, regions and towns internalized their trade and small feudal states emerged. This "Dark Age" was fueled by neighboring fiefs and kingdoms raiding each other's land, razing crops and property, stealing livestock, etc. Not sure how society is expected to progress under such conditions.

5) What rate, exactly, was society supposed to develop at without religion, or in the historic case of Europe, Christianity?

On a related note, and this is speaking much more generally:

6) I think people have a tendency to be arrogant about the past, believing that we are so much better, so much more moral, ethical, civilized, whatever, than those who came long enough before us as to not be in personal memory. Today we look at the middle ages and say, "1200 AD? What a bunch of backwards goobers. They had no concept of reason and believed in magic hocus pocus". People aren't stupid and never have been. I don't think we give our ancestors much credit to their intelligence.
 

crimsonaudio

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6) I think people have a tendency to be arrogant about the past, believing that we are so much better, so much more moral, ethical, civilized, whatever, than those who came long enough before us as to not be in personal memory. Today we look at the middle ages and say, "1200 AD? What a bunch of backwards goobers. They had no concept of reason and believed in magic hocus pocus". People aren't stupid and never have been. I don't think we give our ancestors much credit to their intelligence.
This, more than anything else, has been in my mind throughout this thread. It seems it's easy to forget how many millions of people (estimated to be nearly half a billion) were killed in the 20th century by governments alone, not to mentions random savage violence. There's a very thin veneer of wealth that keeps a majority of people from being barbarians.

'A city's only ever three meals away from anarchy.'
 

Tidewater

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This, more than anything else, has been in my mind throughout this thread. It seems it's easy to forget how many millions of people (estimated to be nearly half a billion) were killed in the 20th century by governments alone, not to mentions random savage violence. There's a very thin veneer of wealth that keeps a majority of people from being barbarians.

'A city's only ever three meals away from anarchy.'
Yeah, but this was governments doing this, so it was okay.
 

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