It's official - Russia enters Crimea

Tidewater · Mar 3, 2014

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

jthomas666 said:
If the US and Europe stand firm with sanctions, this seems a reasonable prediction. A concern is that some nations (aka, France) might provide under the table support to the Russian economy.

Even though these are just economic and diplomatic sanctions, it's in the west's/NATO's/Europe's best interests to act quickly and decisively.

In my experience, getting NATO &/or the EU to act quickly and decisively is like herding cats.
You and I can see that it is in Europe's interest to act quickly and decisively, but invariably, a few European countries tend to see it differently for any number of reasons.

Tidewater · Mar 3, 2014

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

crimsonaudio said:
Y'all feel free to do whatever you want, but I'd really love it if this thread could remain focused on what's happening in Ukraine and not dissolve into yet another 'my team vs your team' debate. I think this could be a very real game-changer in world politics (if not more), or at least a harbinger of such.

We've got tons of threads about how awesome / awful Obama, Bush, Clinton, Reagan, etc were. I think it would be wonderful if we let this one stay more on topic instead of using the topic to play politics. Sure, there will be commentary on Obama as he's the CIC and the face of the USA right now, but it would be nice if it didn't have to degrade into another 'I'm the mirror, you're the glue' thread.

Just my .02, like I said, do what you want.

Fair enough. I have edited the offending posts. The offending language now lives on only in quotes in others' posts, which I cannot edit.
It just bugs me when someone says, "Don't touch that wire fence. It is electrified," and the recipient is dismissive and rude to the one offering the warning: "You don't know what you're talking about." When the warned person then touches the aforementioned fence and gets shocked, it is difficult for me to restrain my derision.
The difference here is that the President will be the last to suffer for his lack of foresight and slavish devotion to his ideology. Already oil is going up, so even if war is averted, millions of Americans will suffer, at least financially.
And this was foreseeable, but he was dismissive and arrogant.

CrimsonProf · Mar 3, 2014

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

BamainBoston said:
I'm getting up there, but if we go to war with the Russians, I may be compelled to sign up. That's some existential stuff there.

POTY.

PacadermaTideUs · Mar 3, 2014

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Tidewater said:
1986Tide said the freezing of Japanese assets was a causus belli.
Let's hope that Putin does not see it that way if the west freezes Russian assets.

Not exactly a causus belli, which carries with it the implication of an objectively just response; rather a US provocation, which may have been perceived by the Japanese as a causus belli, or perhaps simply used as an excuse. (Edit: I'd add that none other than you correctly stated that Japan had other options as a potential response, namely cessation of aggression or surrender. They just refused to give those options due consideration) Irrelevant to your point re: Putin, however.

What sucks is that both Obama and Putin seem to be a bit too brashly drawing red lines, from which retreat isn't possible without appearing exceptionally weak. Writing checks with their mouths that the world doesn't want, can't afford, to cover. If either doesn't realize this by now, he's out of touch with reality.

If ever there was a time for quick, decisive and "Soft Power", it's now.

crimsonaudio · Mar 3, 2014

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Tidewater said:
Fair enough. I have edited the offending posts. The offending language now lives on only in quotes in others' posts, which I cannot edit.
It just bugs me when someone says, "Don't touch that wire fence. It is electrified," and the recipient is dismissive and rude to the one offering the warning: "You don't know what you're talking about." When the warned person then touches the aforementioned fence and gets shocked, it is difficult for me to restrain my derision.
The difference here is that the President will be the last to suffer for his lack of foresight and slavish devotion to his ideology. Already oil is going up, so even if war is averted, millions of Americans will suffer, at least financially.
And this was foreseeable, but he was dismissive and arrogant.

I wasn't thinking of anyone's posts in particular, I just would prefer (not making an admin statement here, just a personal one) if we could keep the criticism to the current situation - it was beginning to dissolve into the tit-for-tat type of thread that is so common on NS.

Tidewater · Mar 3, 2014

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

PacadermaTideUs said:
Not exactly a causus belli, which carries with it the implication of an objectively just response; rather a US provocation, which may have been perceived by the Japanese as a causus belli, or perhaps simply used as an excuse. (Edit: I'd add that none other than you correctly stated that Japan had other options as a potential response, namely cessation of aggression or surrender. They just refused to give those options due consideration) Irrelevant to your point re: Putin, however.

What sucks is that both Obama and Putin seem to be a bit too brashly drawing red lines, from which retreat isn't possible without appearing exceptionally weak. Writing checks with their mouths that the world doesn't want, can't afford, to cover. If either doesn't realize this by now, he's out of touch with reality.

If ever there was a time for quick, decisive and "Soft Power", it's now.

Merkel, in her conversation with Obama today, said her assessment of Putin is that he is "out of touch with reality."
That does not enhance confidence that this will get resolved peacefully and rationally.

PacadermaTideUs · Mar 3, 2014

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Tidewater said:
Merkel, in her conversation with Obama today, said her assessment of Putin is that he is "out of touch with reality."
That does not enhance confidence that this will get resolved peacefully and rationally.

I read that. And no - it's not encouraging.

Tidewater · Mar 3, 2014

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

crimsonaudio said:
I wasn't thinking of anyone's posts in particular, I just would prefer (not making an admin statement here, just a personal one) if we could keep the criticism to the current situation - it was beginning to dissolve into the tit-for-tat type of thread that is so common on NS.

I agree with you. My comments were out of line and offended the O-bots.
I can tell when I get the "Your guy screwed up the country. Now it's my guy's turn to screw up the country" comments.
If the Pravda reports of ambassador's being recall are accurate, this is getting very serious.

crimsonaudio · Mar 3, 2014

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Tidewater said:
If the Pravda reports of ambassador's being recall are accurate, this is getting very serious.

Not looking good:

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/uk...parliament-calls-recall-ambassador-d-c-n41916

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/03/01/canadians-ukraine-crimea_n_4880544.html

Tide1986 · Mar 3, 2014

PacadermaTideUs said:
Not exactly a causus belli, which carries with it the implication of an objectively just response; rather a US provocation, which may have been perceived by the Japanese as a causus belli, or perhaps simply used as an excuse. (Edit: I'd add that none other than you correctly stated that Japan had other options as a potential response, namely cessation of aggression or surrender. They just refused to give those options due consideration) Irrelevant to your point re: Putin, however.

What sucks is that both Obama and Putin seem to be a bit too brashly drawing red lines, from which retreat isn't possible without appearing exceptionally weak. Writing checks with their mouths that the world doesn't want, can't afford, to cover. If either doesn't realize this by now, he's out of touch with reality.

If ever there was a time for quick, decisive and "Soft Power", it's now.

What would Hillary do?

bamacon · Mar 3, 2014

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

BamainBoston said:
I don't either. Especially with the Russians.

Obama won't stand up to satellites backed by the Russians. There is zero chance he confronts them directly. It would literally take a coup and new leader before that would even remotely come to pass.

TommyMac · Mar 3, 2014

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Tide1986 said:
What would Hillary do?

Let's hope we never have to find out.

One thing is for sure though, as usual O'bummer will find a way to handle this in the worst possible way.

bamacon · Mar 3, 2014

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

crimsonaudio said:
A close friend of mine, whose father is a high-ranking official in the EU posted this earlier:

John Kerry said this today almost verbatim.

bamacon · Mar 3, 2014

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

bamacon said:
John Kerry said this today almost verbatim.

Well I couldn't get your friend's fathers EU quote about witnessing "Soft Power" in action and that this is a lose/lose any way Russia goes. The problem is that Vlad and company don't give a rat's rear end what others are thinking...especially the EU.

RammerJammer14 · Mar 3, 2014

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Was looking at another website with majority European members, many of them eastern europeans, and these are the comments I've seen on this issue on literally half a page:

If a demonstrator shot dead a policeman in US, the police would shoot dead 100 demonstrators

US police has a history of shooting unarmed protesters if they are not even violent. Police started using firearms in Ukraine only after several policemen were shot dead. I think that it still should be very limited, andn police should only use firearms in self-defense.

They already took over at least 10 Police stations in Lvov and surroundings and took over the arms caches. With these they are now trying to provoke the Police
into responding with overwhelming fire so that world public opinion would be outraged at "'brutality of Ukrainian government".

How despicable from these antisemitic thugs!! I wish Yanukovich sends in the army to clear out these fascists and send them back to Lvov where these thugs belong!!

The protests in the western Ukraine are organized by the CIA, the US State Department, and by Washington- and EU-financed Non-Governmental Organizations (NGOs) that work in conjunction with the CIA and State Department. The purpose of the protests is to overturn the decision by the independent government of Ukraine not to join the EU.

The US and EU were initially cooperating in the effort to destroy the independence of Ukraine and make it a subservient entity to the EU government in Brussels. For the EU
government, the goal is to expand the EU. For Washington the purposes are to make Ukraine available for looting by US banks and corporations and to bring Ukraine into NATO so that Washington can gain more military bases on Russia’s frontier. There are three countries in the world that are in the way of Washington’s hegemony over the world–Russia, China, and Iran. Each of these countries is targeted by Washington for overthrow or for their sovereignty to be degraded by propaganda and US military bases that leave the countries vulnerable to attack, thus coercing them into accepting Washington’s will.

Seems like people enjoy supporting the Russians just because they aren't the evil US. Idiots.

BamaPokerplayer · Mar 4, 2014

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

It needs to go down, taking out Russia and China in one war would be nice. I guess China might send its one aircraft carrier across the pacific to bomb us. I say we just start letting Japan hand out those anthrax lollipops to the Chinese children again. Russia is nothing more than a big Iraq. I hope we sit this out and Russia and China do some real damage, since most of the planet call us bullies. Anyway nothing to lose sleep over.

Nate Harris · Mar 4, 2014

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Putin is about to run into something ugly. The Russian stock market crashed right after he went into Crimea. The value of the ruble has fallen by ten percent in that time. The Russian central bank just raised interest rates to stop the collapse of the currency. Sudden, unexpected interest rate increases are a sure way to hurt your own economic growth. If the West levies economic sanctions against Russia then the REAL pain will begin for them. The possibility of the Russian economy going into a downward spiral is now looking very real.

This is what the global economy means. It ain't the 80's anymore. Russia's economy is now dependent on exports to big Western consumer nations. That wasn't the case under Soviet rule. You wanna start a trade war against the entire Western world? A lot of people don't seem to realize what is about to happen to Russia if they stay in Crimea. The Russian super-rich will start to feel some real pain and they'll be screaming at Putin to make it stop.

Western oil and gas companies are just begging for it all to go down this way. They'll gladly take the market share that Russian energy companies will be forced to surrender and they'll score record profits in the process. Now is the time to buy stocks in Western energy companies. This will become a lesson in global economics if Putin is stupid enough to keep pushing it.

It looks like he's made the mistake of going all-in way too soon. He has no more cards to play. The Russian economy is about to get seriously hurt without the West even having to fire a shot.

Bama Reb · Mar 4, 2014

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Tidewater said:
I agree with you. My comments were out of line and offended the O-bots.
I can tell when I get the "Your guy screwed up the country. Now it's my guy's turn to screw up the country" comments.
If the Pravda reports of ambassador's being recall are accurate, this is getting very serious.

One thing I've always wondered: Why is is OK for anyone's "guy" to screw up the country? Shouldn't partisanship always take a back seat to defending our Constitution, protecting our citizens and improving our way of life?

crimsonaudio · Mar 4, 2014

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

bamacon said:
The problem is that Vlad and company don't give a rat's rear end what others are thinking...especially the EU.

They will care if their actions continue to send foreign investors running from the Ruble.

RammerJammer14 said:
Seems like people enjoy supporting the Russians just because they aren't the evil US. Idiots.

Hard to criticize their view when we have no idea what their information sources are. I suspect they are inundated constantly with how bad things are here - not unlike we're inundated with how bad things are in Russia.

I have several friends who live in Russia - it's amazing how different their world is from what we're told it is.

chanson78 · Mar 4, 2014

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Nate Harris said:
Putin is about to run into something ugly. The Russian stock market crashed right after he went into Crimea. The value of the ruble has fallen by ten percent in that time. The Russian central bank just raised interest rates to stop the collapse of the currency. Sudden, unexpected interest rate increases are a sure way to hurt your own economic growth. If the West levies economic sanctions against Russia then the REAL pain will begin for them. The possibility of the Russian economy going into a downward spiral is now looking very real.

This is what the global economy means. It ain't the 80's anymore. Russia's economy is now dependent on exports to big Western consumer nations. That wasn't the case under Soviet rule. You wanna start a trade war against the entire Western world? A lot of people don't seem to realize what is about to happen to Russia if they stay in Crimea. The Russian super-rich will start to feel some real pain and they'll be screaming at Putin to make it stop.

Western oil and gas companies are just begging for it all to go down this way. They'll gladly take the market share that Russian energy companies will be forced to surrender and they'll score record profits in the process. Now is the time to buy stocks in Western energy companies. This will become a lesson in global economics if Putin is stupid enough to keep pushing it.

It looks like he's made the mistake of going all-in way too soon. He has no more cards to play. The Russian economy is about to get seriously hurt without the West even having to fire a shot.

But if we don't blow something up the US will look weak, our allies will begin to call us sissy girls, and soon we will be speaking Russian or Chinese down at the local store.

I for one won't stand for it. I say we all go to Washington DC and demand that the president blow something up to look strong. Preferably with his shirt off. While petting a cougar. But what to blow up? We have already been blowing up Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan for the past 10 years, with a little spice of indiscriminate drone bombings in various African countries. What country will show the Russians that we really mean business this time and to keep their hands off a country we don't care about. I know, ANTARCTICA! Its not even a country so it will be even scarier. That will show those commie jerks who's boss. Once we blow up all that ice, and since Russia is made of ice, they will immediately do whatever we tell them because obviously Putin is a rational actor who can be counted on to do the smart thing.

Too much?

It's official - Russia enters Crimea

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