It's official - Russia enters Crimea

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bamacon

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Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

They will care if their actions continue to send foreign investors running from the Ruble.


Hard to criticize their view when we have no idea what their information sources are. I suspect they are inundated constantly with how bad things are here - not unlike we're inundated with how bad things are in Russia.

I have several friends who live in Russia - it's amazing how different their world is from what we're told it is.
Then why do it at all? I know you had talked about "bashing" the president but you have to look at his handling of foreign policy and especially his reticence at dealing with tyrants. I know of as many Dems as Reps who are shocked at how weak our President's response has been in these areas, and they are terribly frustrated that he is so reluctant to project strength, even economically. His history has been to go into ostrich mode and I don't think that is prudent.
 

Bama Reb

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Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

But if we don't blow something up the US will look weak, our allies will begin to call us sissy girls, and soon we will be speaking Russian or Chinese down at the local store.

I for one won't stand for it. I say we all go to Washington DC and demand that the president blow something up to look strong. Preferably with his shirt off. While petting a cougar. But what to blow up?
Too much?

The Judean People's Front Suicide Squad.

:biggrin2:
 
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CajunCrimson

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Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

But if we don't blow something up the US will look weak, our allies will begin to call us sissy girls, and soon we will be speaking Russian or Chinese down at the local store.

I for one won't stand for it. I say we all go to Washington DC and demand that the president blow something up to look strong. Preferably with his shirt off. While petting a cougar. But what to blow up? We have already been blowing up Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan for the past 10 years, with a little spice of indiscriminate drone bombings in various African countries. What country will show the Russians that we really mean business this time and to keep their hands off a country we don't care about. I know, ANTARCTICA! Its not even a country so it will be even scarier. That will show those commie jerks who's boss. Once we blow up all that ice, and since Russia is made of ice, they will immediately do whatever we tell them because obviously Putin is a rational actor who can be counted on to do the smart thing.

Too much?
Libs worry about turtles, beetles, and carbon footprints, yet make jokes about truly dangerous scenarios. No one rational wants Obama to blow up anything. I'm content to let Biden do it. Just let him know that Glasgow is in Scotland....so he doesn't get confused.
 

bamachile

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Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Libs worry about turtles, beetles, and carbon footprints, yet make jokes about truly dangerous scenarios. No one rational wants Obama to blow up anything. I'm content to let Biden do it. Just let him know that Glasgow is in Scotland....so he doesn't get confused.
You speak of Liberals or Libertarians? Chanson is a Libertarian, as am I. You will pardon our tendency to revert to cynical humor in our frustration, I hope.
 

CajunCrimson

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Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

You speak of Liberals or Libertarians? Chanson is a Libertarian, as am I. You will pardon our tendency to revert to cynical humor in our frustration, I hope.
Oh don't get me started about the dope smoking, isolationist right wing nutters. ;)
 

chanson78

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Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Libs worry about turtles, beetles, and carbon footprints, yet make jokes about truly dangerous scenarios. No one rational wants Obama to blow up anything. I'm content to let Biden do it. Just let him know that Glasgow is in Scotland....so he doesn't get confused.
For the record, there are many who want a direct confrontation in support of Ukraine. Primarily pundits and ex military "consultants" on the various networks.

You can't on the one hand say that the US is at its weakest position, while on the other say "no one rational wants Obama to blow up anything." You gain a reputation through your actions. Many wanted the US to do something in Iran as well as Syria. These are the two countries used as past performance as to why the US is seen as weak. Those very same people are the ones who advocated military solutions to both of those problems.

Please explain to me the circle logic regarding:

1. The US is weak, this is why Putin went after his neighbor
2. The US should have been more forceful in Iran and Syria, then we wouldn't have been seen as weak (Likely involving blowing stuff up)
3. No one wants Obama to blow anything up, but according to 2 thats one of the few ways to show we aren't weak

You say that libs only care about hippy concerns. I say that conservatives are paranoid and think every country that is sabre rattling is the opening credits to Red Dawn.
 

crimsonaudio

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Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Then why do it at all?
Why do what? Are you asking me why Putin invaded Ukraine? If so, I've no answer, though my Russian friends say he's an 'old-school' guy, with an '80's cold-war mindset'. While people all over the world have spent the last few years fawning over Putin's shirtless hunting pics and such, I think many have forgotten he's just a politician / former KGB agent. He makes political blunders as well. He tried to pull this off quietly (blank uniforms and trucks, denial of any intention of invasion) and that has backfired on him. Too much too soon.

I know you had talked about "bashing" the president but you have to look at his handling of foreign policy and especially his reticence at dealing with tyrants. I know of as many Dems as Reps who are shocked at how weak our President's response has been in these areas, and they are terribly frustrated that he is so reluctant to project strength, even economically. His history has been to go into ostrich mode and I don't think that is prudent.
I've seen quite a lot of this, and while I'm no fan of many of President Obama's policies, I'd love for someone to suggest what he SHOULD be doing. Everyone is so critical, but no one seems to have an answer. He publicly denounced the action, what else should he do? Tell me.
 

bamacon

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Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Why do what? Are you asking me why Putin invaded Ukraine? If so, I've no answer, though my Russian friends say he's an 'old-school' guy, with an '80's cold-war mindset'. While people all over the world have spent the last few years fawning over Putin's shirtless hunting pics and such, I think many have forgotten he's just a politician / former KGB agent. He makes political blunders as well. He tried to pull this off quietly (blank uniforms and trucks, denial of any intention of invasion) and that has backfired on him. Too much too soon.
That's what should scare old school capitalists. Old school communism isn't worried about the value of the ruble or of world opinion. They do not mind making their people suffer in terms of bringing back the Motherland. I would also venture to guess that the vast number of Americans could care less what happens at all.
 

Tide1986

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For the record, there are many who want a direct confrontation in support of Ukraine. Primarily pundits and ex military "consultants" on the various networks.

You can't on the one hand say that the US is at its weakest position, while on the other say "no one rational wants Obama to blow up anything." You gain a reputation through your actions. Many wanted the US to do something in Iran as well as Syria. These are the two countries used as past performance as to why the US is seen as weak. Those very same people are the ones who advocated military solutions to both of those problems.

Please explain to me the circle logic regarding:

1. The US is weak, this is why Putin went after his neighbor
2. The US should have been more forceful in Iran and Syria, then we wouldn't have been seen as weak (Likely involving blowing stuff up)
3. No one wants Obama to blow anything up, but according to 2 thats one of the few ways to show we aren't weak

You say that libs only care about hippy concerns. I say that conservatives are paranoid and think every country that is sabre rattling is the opening credits to Red Dawn.
Any perception of weakness is probably driven by:

(1) Not following through with publicly-made threats (Syria); and
(2) Giving Iran what it wanted from any "negotiations" (i.e. the right to enrich uranium).
 

chanson78

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Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Any perception of weakness is probably driven by:

(1) Not following through with publicly-made threats (Syria); and
(2) Giving Iran what it wanted from any "negotiations" (i.e. the right to enrich uranium).
I'll concede the point re: threats not being followed through. But you can't hold up the Iran and Syrian conflicts as examples without also recognizing the vast number of war-hawks who wanted us to go in with either gunz-a-blazin or direct and open arms support during their initial uprisings.
 

Tide1986

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Why do what? Are you asking me why Putin invaded Ukraine? If so, I've no answer, though my Russian friends say he's an 'old-school' guy, with an '80's cold-war mindset'. While people all over the world have spent the last few years fawning over Putin's shirtless hunting pics and such, I think many have forgotten he's just a politician / former KGB agent. He makes political blunders as well. He tried to pull this off quietly (blank uniforms and trucks, denial of any intention of invasion) and that has backfired on him. Too much too soon.


I've seen quite a lot of this, and while I'm no fan of many of President Obama's policies, I'd love for someone to suggest what he SHOULD be doing. Everyone is so critical, but no one seems to have an answer. He publicly denounced the action, what else should he do? Tell me.
He could make some provocative moves like:

(1) making public moves to admit Georgia to NATO; and
(2) announcing plans to expand missile defense systems in Europe.

I'm sure we could come up with other such moves that would show strength/resolve.
 

crimsonaudio

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Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

That's what should scare old school capitalists. Old school communism isn't worried about the value of the ruble or of world opinion. They do not mind making their people suffer in terms of bringing back the Motherland. I would also venture to guess that the vast number of Americans could care less what happens at all.
Problem is their economy is no longer old-world communist - it relies heavily on world trade.

Sure, these actions harken back to the cold war, but economies are far more global now.

I'm not suggesting this is minor - I'm following it closely as I believe it has potential to become something huge - but fear of the former USSR reviving itself when none of the underlying factors that allowed it to 'succeed' (defined only by the fact that for >50 years it survived as a form of government) exist today seems odd. Russia's economy is as dependent on foreign trade as ours is.
 

CajunCrimson

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Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

I've seen quite a lot of this, and while I'm no fan of many of President Obama's policies, I'd love for someone to suggest what he SHOULD be doing. Everyone is so critical, but no one seems to have an answer. He publicly denounced the action, what else should he do? Tell me.
Well, isn't that the problem now? He's worked himself into a position where he has no path that has a good outcome. He verbally deflated Russia's status as a "geo political foe" - he is on tape pretty much asking Putin to wait until he's been re-elected before he pulls off anything stupid......and his cabinet (Clinton, Hagel and now Kerry) have done nothing but make our military weak and incompetent....and then we make a pledge to reduce the size of our military to pre WWII levels, and bring troops home from all over the globe, simply to return home unemployed (because we won't do something logical like place them on the border to defend that) --

Through action or inaction, he's now 5 years in and this is his situation to deal with. He's at a point where he just pretty much has to let Russia have it.....which was Putin's plan to begin with -- let the tensions settle, and then in 2 years take the next target.
 

Tide1986

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I'll concede the point re: threats not being followed through. But you can't hold up the Iran and Syrian conflicts as examples without also recognizing the vast number of war-hawks who wanted us to go in with either gunz-a-blazin or direct and open arms support during their initial uprisings.
My comments express my view. I didn't call for bombing either Iran or Syria. However, there were certainly hawks flying around both situations. Has there ever been a time when there were no hawks?
 

chanson78

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Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

I've seen quite a lot of this, and while I'm no fan of many of President Obama's policies, I'd love for someone to suggest what he SHOULD be doing. Everyone is so critical, but no one seems to have an answer. He publicly denounced the action, what else should he do? Tell me.
Technically since Obama and the rest of the Democratic party are all communists, wouldn't it be prudent to poll all of them, kinda like a WWSD? (What would Stalin do?) That way once you have a consensus of their answers you would know exactly why Putin is doing what he is doing.

Hmm I bet I can take a stab at this:

1. Given the scenario that you are in a cold barren wasteland rife with corruption and very few bald eagles, why would you invade your neighboring country?
a) Freeeeeeeeedooooooom!
b) To impose our will and ensure that we have a warm water port once the anti-us government of our neighboring country decides to terminate our lease and keep all of our military hardware.
c) They drove too many hybrid cars.
d) I like guns.

2. You need to take a picture, choose all the poses that are acceptable for release.
a) Shirtless
b) With a cougar
c) With a gun
d) Riding horseback

In all seriousness, I cannot agree with you more CA. It is a shame that the politics in this country have gotten to the point where no one can admit that it is a tough situation and they (whoever they are) could use some bi-partisan support. The president could pick up a gun, storm the kremlin, shoot all the bad guys, and Republicans would be mad that he wasn't wearing his BDU's made out of the American flag and should be impeached due to lack of patriotism.
 

CajunCrimson

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Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

In all seriousness, I cannot agree with you more CA. It is a shame that the politics in this country have gotten to the point where no one can admit that it is a tough situation and they (whoever they are) could use some bi-partisan support. The president could pick up a gun, storm the kremlin, shoot all the bad guys, and Republicans would be mad that he wasn't wearing his BDU's made out of the American flag and should be impeached due to lack of patriotism.
Bi-Partisan support? lol -- figuring the Republicans have caved on EVERY issue since Obama has become president, what does he need help from them for?

Seems to me he is all-powerful and capable of playing with Putin without adult supervision.......
 

bamacon

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Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

In all seriousness, I cannot agree with you more CA. It is a shame that the politics in this country have gotten to the point where no one can admit that it is a tough situation and they (whoever they are) could use some bi-partisan support. The president could pick up a gun, storm the kremlin, shoot all the bad guys, and Republicans would be mad that he wasn't wearing his BDU's made out of the American flag and should be impeached due to lack of patriotism.
Yeah, that's it.
 

Tide1986

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Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...s-gaffe-city-profits-diplomacy-britain-russia

So yet another UK government official didn't get the memo – the one that says when you're going to a high-level, top secret meeting in Downing Street, try not to arrive carrying papers that can be snapped by waiting photographers. As deputy national security adviser Hugh Powell is the latest to discover, in the age of the zoom lens, they can be read easily. (It turns out there's a freelance photographer who hangs around outside No 10, one Steve Back, who specialises in just such pictures.)
Still, we should be grateful to the unguarded Mr Powell. If he had popped his documents in a folder we would never know that, whatever other action the European Union has in mind on Ukraine, the British government is adamant that the City of London will be exempt. Or as the official text put it, Britain will "not support, for now, trade sanctions … or close London's financial centre to Russians." In other words, even if Russia is in the process of invading a sovereign state, Britain will still do nothing that might dent the profits of the money men in the City.
Not that Britain is alone in this. Germany is reluctant to come down hard on Russia, its No 1 trading partner, on whom it relies for its domestic energy. France enjoys a lucrative relationship with Moscow, too, and is contracted to build two valuable Mistral-class warships for the Russian navy. They're looking out for their "strategic" industries, just like Osborne.

The result is that Vladimir Putin knows he can scarcely be touched. That would be true of any state that is a nuclear-armed, permanent member of the UN Security Council. But it's truer still of a state whose money and resources the west needs. It makes Russia doubly untouchable.
 
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