News Article: Amari Cooper Credits Lane Kiffin's Offense as Reason Behind His Big Scrimmage

TideWatcher · Apr 8, 2014

I worry about Kiffin's offense. Maybe with the horses Bama has it will be great; I hope so, but I can't shake the games I watched when USC was pathetic and looked incompetent in play calling and execution. I hope personnel had a lot to do with it, because Kiffin was the man in charge. CS is the best in the business, so I rest in his confidence in Kiffin, but apprehension remains until he shows it against good D. If he does, I will gladly rejoice; I'm pulling for him, because I'm pulling for Bama.

KrAzY3 · Apr 8, 2014

BamainBoston said:
I'll believe it when I see it.

Well, I have...

CrimsonForce said:
As will I

BamaMoon said:
JessN has stated Blakes real struggle is the "intermediate" throws. Those are the ones I remember in some game situations.

When BS's inaccuracy is mentioned, you typically say that it based on very limited data. Then you mention remembering seeing him throw in his first A day game as proof he's better than the brief times we've seen him.

Those two posts both question his ability to throw the deep ball. I've seen him throw the deep ball, he can, I've said it over and over, while he might not have a cannon, he can make the throw. His arm strength has been constantly questioned on this forum, I've seen people say over and over he simply can't throw the deep ball.

As you point out, JessN also said the issue was with intermediate passes, and he also said that he can throw the deep ball. So, what are we arguing about here? We're arguing whether or not he can throw the deep ball, which I've seen, which our resident expert attests to.

Yes, he has some accuracy issues (as does Coker). Not once did I say he didn't. I simply said he was better than people give him credit for, and we have a couple doubters here as proof. Because they weren't there when he did it, they don't believe he can do it... I can't comprehend that sort of bias against a guy like Blake Sims. What did he do to them to make them question his abilities so much? To make them doubt what I saw, what others attest to, what the coaches seem to think about him?

RollTide1224 · Apr 8, 2014

TideWatcher said:
I worry about Kiffin's offense. Maybe with the horses Bama has it will be great; I hope so, but I can't shake the games I watched when USC was pathetic and looked incompetent in play calling and execution. I hope personnel had a lot to do with it, because Kiffin was the man in charge. CS is the best in the business, so I rest in his confidence in Kiffin, but apprehension remains until he shows it against good D. If he does, I will gladly rejoice; I'm pulling for him, because I'm pulling for Bama.

I've seen quotes from some USC players saying they thought Kiffin might have just gotten overwhelmed dealing with all of the issues that come along with being the head coach. If this is true it's possible that his playcalling/oc suffered as a result of all of the other things he had to take care of. This ultimately culminated in USC being terrible but there were times that they were very good offensively when he was head coach too.

The hope is that once all of his attention can be focused on teaching the offense and calling plays on gamedays, like it will be at Bama and was when he was OC at USC, the good Lane Kiffin will come out. Many people have bought into the idea that LK is an offensive genius, that combined with his pedigree has gotten him some pretty prestigious jobs up to this point. It's either true or he is just an incredibly good con artist. I tend to think that he is a talented offensive mind. If Coach Saban's system can harnass Kiffin and have him reach his full potential we might have ourselves a very good offensive coordinator.

Bamabuzzard · Apr 8, 2014

KrAzY3 said:
Well, I have...

See those two posts? They both question his ability to throw the deep ball. I've seen him throw the deep ball, he can, I've said it over and over, while he might not have a cannon, he can make the throw. His arm strength has been constantly questioned on this forum, I've seen people say over and over he simply can't throw the deep ball.

As you point out, JessN also said the issue was with intermediate passes, and he also said that he can throw the deep ball. So, what are we arguing about here? We're arguing whether or not he can throw the deep ball, which I've seen, which our resident expert attests to.

Yes, he has some accuracy issues. Not once did I say he didn't. I simply said he was better than people give him credit for, and we have a couple doubters here as proof. Because they weren't there when he did it, they don't believe he can do it... I can't comprehend that sort of bias against a guy like Blake Sims. What did he do to them to make them question his abilities so much? To make them doubt what I saw, what others attest to, what the coaches seem to think about him?

They do Jesus the same way. :biggrin2:

In all seriousness, I think Sims is going to surprise a lot of folks. I fully expect him to be the starter when we play West Virginia. I have a vision of him being a lot like Tee Martin the year after Manning left. NO ONE expected them to win the national title after Manning left. Everyone expected a drop off and low and behold Martin played very solid all year and lead them to a title. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if the same happened with Sims.

BigBama76 · Apr 8, 2014

Padreruf said:
Really great athletes do not need a complicated system -- their ability can carry them. Lesser athletes need a system in order to compete. Successful coaches know this and vary the complexity of their system depending upon who they have. Not as a knock against him, but I do think at times that CNS's system has produced too much "thinking" and not enough "reacting" and just playing your position. Our DL and LB's were thinking far too much against AU -- and I do not think you cannot do that against an option based, fast speed offense. But, the next football team I coach will be my first!

I think Coach Saban, while a renowned defensive mind, has not dealt with spread offenses enough to fully account for them in his defense. Having said that, you stop AU's offense exactly the way we stopped LSU in the NCG, you get penetration off the edge and force the QB to read too early. We did that a few times against AU for some good stops but we weren't consistently doing it.

Now, how you stop an A&M pass centric attack I'll leave up to him but I would think penetration is also the key there as well.

dWarriors88 · Apr 8, 2014

BamainBoston said:
I'll believe it when I see it.

Shots fired!

TiderJack · Apr 8, 2014

BamainBoston said:
I hope he surprises me and turns into a world class QB. Nothing I have seen makes me think he will. This is not a bias, it's just a fact. I hope to the good Lord above I am starting a thread in October about how wrong I was about Blake Sims. I don't understand why some people seem to take doubts about Blake Sims, based on his performance, so personally.

With the body of work we have all been presented with Blake with the pro-style offense, you have to doubt. With that said, the comments from the coaches and teammates so far this spring give hope Blake is progressing and can thrive in this offense but for some to say he is going to be the man and will have a great year you are basing that on blind faith since you have not seen him thrive except at times last year running the spread option style of offense. There is a long way to go before our opener and may the best man win.

92tide · Apr 8, 2014

BigBama76 said:
I think Coach Saban, while a renowned defensive mind, has not dealt with spread offenses enough to fully account for them in his defense. Having said that, you stop AU's offense exactly the way we stopped LSU in the NCG, you get penetration off the edge and force the QB to read too early. We did that a few times against AU for some good stops but we weren't consistently doing it.

Now, how you stop an A&M pass centric attack I'll leave up to him but I would think penetration is also the key there as well.

we stopped a and m cold for a big chunk of the game last year (while we rolled off 35 straight points).

CrimsonForce · Apr 8, 2014

KrAzY3 said:
Well, I have...

Those two posts both question his ability to throw the deep ball. I've seen him throw the deep ball, he can, I've said it over and over, while he might not have a cannon, he can make the throw. His arm strength has been constantly questioned on this forum, I've seen people say over and over he simply can't throw the deep ball.

As you point out, JessN also said the issue was with intermediate passes, and he also said that he can throw the deep ball. So, what are we arguing about here? We're arguing whether or not he can throw the deep ball, which I've seen, which our resident expert attests to.

Yes, he has some accuracy issues (as does Coker). Not once did I say he didn't. I simply said he was better than people give him credit for, and we have a couple doubters here as proof. Because they weren't there when he did it, they don't believe he can do it... I can't comprehend that sort of bias against a guy like Blake Sims. What did he do to them to make them question his abilities so much? To make them doubt what I saw, what others attest to, what the coaches seem to think about him?

Nobody is arguing about anything except for you. Myself and others were expressing our opinions which is what a sports message board is for. I just state my opinion and let it be. Seems like you always try to change everybody else's mind who doesn't agree with you. I have no bias against BS. It's my opinion that he's not our best option at QB next year. Am I right? Who knows. If he's our QB I'll be his biggest fan. And BS really has not had enough playing time in any situation to really support an argument for him either way. He's made some good throws and he's made some poor throws.

Con · Apr 8, 2014

Seems like the reason people may doubt Sims' ability is because he is first in line. The back up QB is always the most popular. Just think back to Burgdorf or Zow/Watts. The new guy always gets the nod with fans.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

cuda.1973 · Apr 8, 2014

92tide said:
we stopped a and m cold for a big chunk of the game last year (while we rolled off 35 straight points).

^^^^This^^^^

The way to deal with aTm is to get the offense on the field, wear out THEIR defense, and rack up points. Ditto for API.

Implies that you convert on 3rd down. We didn't do that well, and that dictated the outcome.

Padreruf · Apr 8, 2014

cuda.1973 said:
^^^^This^^^^

The way to deal with aTm is to get the offense on the field, wear out THEIR defense, and rack up points. Ditto for API.

Implies that you convert on 3rd down. We didn't do that well, and that dictated the outcome.

To restate the obvious: if you look at our stats from the National Championship years, our defense spent far less time on the field than other top teams. We defended less plays because our offense took the ball, ran it and maintained control of the game. Our defense was better rested and usually the game was over by halftime. If you look at A&M from 2012 and AU & OU from this year, our offense was continually stymied and left our defense hung out to dry.

For the defenses' part, they did not stop big 3rd down plays and were susceptible to fatigue. The more I look at it, the less I think we need any major revisions.

BamaMoon · Apr 9, 2014

Con said:
Seems like the reason people may doubt Sims' ability is because he is first in line. The back up QB is always the most popular. Just think back to Burgdorf or Zow/Watts. The new guy always gets the nod with fans.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Much more to it IMO in this instance:

1. He came in as a running back recruit.
2. He later switched to qb when we kinda got in a bind in the qb department.
3. He's played very little.
4. When he's played he's run more of the read option than our traditional set of plays the #1 ran (not necessarily his fault).
5. When he has been given the opportunity to throw the ball the results have been mixed.
6. His mechanics leave something to be desired; which makes him not "look" like a polished qb.

KrAzY3 · Apr 9, 2014

BamaMoon said:
1. He came in as a running back recruit.
2. He later switched to qb when we kinda got in a bind in the qb department.

He got a look first at QB, and was played at QB. He wasn't playing running back in his first spring as far as I can tell. I'm not sure if his move to RB was due to perceived failure at the position, or merely depth issues.

And, to make this as clear as I can and to avoid any confusion in the future. I witnessed Blake Sims make a good looking throw from deep in his own territory, to well past the 50 yard line. That might have been the best throw in his lifetime for all I know, but it sure seemed to me it was as adequate a deep ball as Alabama is likely to need (AJ is considered to have a weak arm by NFL standards, but I can't recall that being an issue at Alabama). I don't really care what people think (personally, I don't expect him to be the primary starter), but I interpreted saying he can't make that throw as misleading.

There's a certain evasiveness of the point I was trying to make all along. I guess, because I've kept saying he can throw the deep ball, that comes off as me thinking he's a good quarterback (better than people think isn't saying much when most comments I see are negative). On the flip side, it seems to me that some people who doubt his abilities start with questioning his arm strength and ability to throw the deep ball, when really that's not at an issue for him at Alabama. Somehow we're addressing the same exact thing and talking about two different things, heh...

Tradition4ever · Apr 9, 2014

One particular thing that Amari said that catches my eye is that in this new offensive approach under Kiffin, sometimes the QB and the WR just have to play pitch and catch, that the QB needs to just pull the trigger and trust that the WR will make the play and beat the coverage. It does sound like a simpler approach, and I had noticed during McCarron's tenure as QB, as well as with McElroy, that the QB seemed a bit tentative or conservative when it came to going to a receiver who was covered. Nothing wrong with being conservative and avoiding turnovers, but there has to be a point where when you have the athletes at WR and TE like we have, you just start burning defenses that try to simply man up. One instance that McCarron did just that to great effect was the BCSNCG against LSU when he went after the honey badger in one on one coverage. Perhaps a change that Kiffin has made is that when defenses try to play man, especially against Cooper, the offense is going to go to Cooper, or perhaps White, or Jones, or Howard. A simpler if not less conservative approach.

JessN · Apr 9, 2014

This is going to come across as a shock to a lot of people, but I knew someone who, I'll just say was in a position to know this, told me that the most "complex" offense Alabama has had in his time around the program was the one Mike Shula used. Playbook size, terminology, etc., was overwhelming. This was, however, before Nussmeier was hired, so I don't know if it changed post-Nuss. Either way, it's kind of shocking to me, since Shula seemed to use the same five plays over and over. Proof, at least, that complex does not automatically equal good.

Most of these HUNH offenses, especially the type Auburn uses, are not complex. It's 5-10 plays out of a bunch of different formations with the final read done by the QB at the line of scrimmage prior to the snap. It just looks complex because you've got dummy routes and guys running around in the backfield like their pants are ablaze. What you'll find in the college game, with all the restrictions on practice time, is that simple and quick will beat complex and slow-developing 9 times out of 10. There are two main reasons some schools don't run the pro set. The first is that they can't recruit the talent for it; the second is they can't practice it enough during the week to master it. So if Alabama is moving more towards a check-based system that cleans up a lot of the pre-snap junk that Sims/Coker/Morris/Bateman have to deal with, it's probably a good thing.

Padreruf · Apr 9, 2014

Tradition4ever said:
One particular thing that Amari said that catches my eye is that in this new offensive approach under Kiffin, sometimes the QB and the WR just have to play pitch and catch, that the QB needs to just pull the trigger and trust that the WR will make the play and beat the coverage. It does sound like a simpler approach, and I had noticed during McCarron's tenure as QB, as well as with McElroy, that the QB seemed a bit tentative or conservative when it came to going to a receiver who was covered. Nothing wrong with being conservative and avoiding turnovers, but there has to be a point where when you have the athletes at WR and TE like we have, you just start burning defenses that try to simply man up. One instance that McCarron did just that to great effect was the BCSNCG against LSU when he went after the honey badger in one on one coverage. Perhaps a change that Kiffin has made is that when defenses try to play man, especially against Cooper, the offense is going to go to Cooper, or perhaps White, or Jones, or Howard. A simpler if not less conservative approach.

As I understand it, the concept is called "throwing your man open." It involves trust by the qb that the receiver will make the proper read and cut. IMHO, AJM seemed to do this less and less as he was trying to avoid turnovers at all costs. Same with GM. I understand this emphasis from the coaches, but do think it stymied us a bit at times.

BamaMoon · Apr 9, 2014

Padreruf said:
As I understand it, the concept is called "throwing your man open." It involves trust by the qb that the receiver will make the proper read and cut. IMHO, AJM seemed to do this less and less as he was trying to avoid turnovers at all costs. Same with GM. I understand this emphasis from the coaches, but do think it stymied us a bit at times.

In an ironic twists, the young, gunslinging AJ who might have been more INT prone almost swung full circle and became the cautious AJ.

Sometimes I wonder if his JR campaign of 30 TDs and only 3 INTs maybe hurt him in the long run to not be as "risky" as maybe he should have been.

But hindsight is 50-50 as Yogi said.

TouchThatThang · Apr 9, 2014

Tradition4ever said:
One particular thing that Amari said that catches my eye is that in this new offensive approach under Kiffin, sometimes the QB and the WR just have to play pitch and catch, that the QB needs to just pull the trigger and trust that the WR will make the play and beat the coverage. It does sound like a simpler approach, and I had noticed during McCarron's tenure as QB, as well as with McElroy, that the QB seemed a bit tentative or conservative when it came to going to a receiver who was covered. Nothing wrong with being conservative and avoiding turnovers, but there has to be a point where when you have the athletes at WR and TE like we have, you just start burning defenses that try to simply man up. One instance that McCarron did just that to great effect was the BCSNCG against LSU when he went after the honey badger in one on one coverage. Perhaps a change that Kiffin has made is that when defenses try to play man, especially against Cooper, the offense is going to go to Cooper, or perhaps White, or Jones, or Howard. A simpler if not less conservative approach.

I'm definitely with you. One thing I love about Jameis Winston's game is his aggressiveness in attacking down the field. He said he's "patient vs zone, aggressive vs man." Because of that attitude, FSU rarely punted and rarely had a completion for less than ten yards. I'd like to see us attack the other team, really put them on their heels, rather than play not to lose this season. I think Kiffin is the guy to make it happen.

92tide · Apr 9, 2014

Tradition4ever said:
One particular thing that Amari said that catches my eye is that in this new offensive approach under Kiffin, sometimes the QB and the WR just have to play pitch and catch, that the QB needs to just pull the trigger and trust that the WR will make the play and beat the coverage. It does sound like a simpler approach, and I had noticed during McCarron's tenure as QB, as well as with McElroy, that the QB seemed a bit tentative or conservative when it came to going to a receiver who was covered. Nothing wrong with being conservative and avoiding turnovers, but there has to be a point where when you have the athletes at WR and TE like we have, you just start burning defenses that try to simply man up. One instance that McCarron did just that to great effect was the BCSNCG against LSU when he went after the honey badger in one on one coverage. Perhaps a change that Kiffin has made is that when defenses try to play man, especially against Cooper, the offense is going to go to Cooper, or perhaps White, or Jones, or Howard. A simpler if not less conservative approach.

without any knowledge other than guessing, i would think that this is the approach that malzhan and sumlin instilled in cam, marshal and jff. so many of their highlight reel plays were them just chucking the ball up and letting the receiver make the play. i imagine that this can have a somewhat demoralizing effect on the secondary and open up a lot of scrambling lanes.

News Article: Amari Cooper Credits Lane Kiffin's Offense as Reason Behind His Big Scrimmage

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