Harry Reid's Connection To The Nevada Ranch Incident

mittman

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I have not formed an opinion about the rancher/BLM situation, and I don't recall stating an opinion about it in this thread. Nevertheless, I do smile at times when federal desires/actions are thwarted.
Me too :)

Regarding your follow-up question, if a state and the federal government have a legal agreement for the placement of a military base within the borders of the state, then it's possible that the rancher could be prohibited from grazing cattle on the military base.
I think we agree. It all depends on what the agreement was at the time of statehood.

Where I think the guy has a point is that the initial fees and probably agreement on the grazing was how the fees would be used. If the government then used their own money to buy them off I can see it getting under his skin. I don't put it beyond BLM to do that either. He may not have a leg to stand on legally, and that doesn't make what was done right.

I just don't think this is the best case or appropriate place to take up arms against the federal government. Most everyone has their tyrannical line where they will not be pushed over. This isn't mine.
 

Tide1986

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Why You Should be Sympathetic Toward- Cliven Bundy

...why does Bundy deserve our sympathy? To begin with, his family has been ranching on the acres at issue since the late 19th century. They and other settlers were induced to come to Nevada in part by the federal government’s promise that they would be able to graze their cattle on adjacent government-owned land. For many years they did so, with no limitations or fees. The Bundy family was ranching in southern Nevada long before the BLM came into existence.
So let’s have some sympathy for Cliven Bundy and his family. They don’t have a chance on the law, because under the Endangered Species Act and many other federal statutes, the agencies are always in the right. And their way of life is one that, frankly, is on the outs. They don’t develop apps. They don’t ask for food stamps. It probably has never occurred to them to bribe a politician. They don’t subsist by virtue of government subsidies or regulations that hamstring competitors. They aren’t illegal immigrants. They have never even gone to law school. So what possible place is there for the Bundys in the Age of Obama?
 

PacadermaTideUs

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Be that as it may - there it is. IMO, this particular guy is the worst possible example of a way to contest the issue of sovereignty. He's been inconsistent - paid and then quit. He is grazing land far, far beyond what he ever paid to graze, on the grounds that it all belongs to the state (which didn't even exist when the US acquired the lands). The state won't accept his money. He's lost multiple cases, without even appealing some. He's done real harm to the cause of states' rights and he's using other peoples' passions to do it, when he's interested mainly in his own pocketbook. Think! Instead of just knee-jerk reacting. The US acquired the lands in the Hidalgo Treaty of 1848. Nevada came into existence in 1863 because Lincoln needed the electoral votes for the next election. So, did Nevada magically acquire title to all these lands the US already owned, when Nevada wasn't even a fuzzy idea in politicians' minds when it was admitted to the Union? Hell! The Indians have a much better claim to title than the state of Nevada would over the US. It's really absurd. If the US doesn't own the lands, let's let it go back to the aboriginal owners and hope they're as kind to the whites as the South Africans have been...
Oh, I agree. I'm not throwing in with Bundy on this issue - I think his argument is a flawed one in this case. I'm merely saying that judging by the language in their state constitution, Nevadans seem to be against a people's right to be self-governed.

But it is what it is. Bundy has no leg to stand on if he's leaning on Nevada law as a basis against Federal intrusion. Nevada appears to doctrinally be the proverbial Federal lapdog.
 

TIDE-HSV

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I'm intrigued by this idea that, somehow, Nevada became the owner of all federal lands within the boundaries automatically, just because it became a state. There is simply no line of cases, statutes or anything anywhere holding that. Point it out to me. I've only been at this law thing for fifty years...
 

TIDE-HSV

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Interesting graphic I found:

There are very good reasons for the map. Under the Common Law, which our country was formed from, title to land always flows from the sovereign. First, it was from the Crown, then, later, our federal government, as the successor sovereign to the Crown. All attorneys are taught this in law school. It is woven through our constitution, its amendments and all court decisions interpreting it. In the east, it didn't take that much land to support a family, so the land grants were smaller. When I first started practicing law, standard practice was to trace title all the way back to the land grant. Now, titles are not checked back nearly so far. Land grants which were given by the English crown were honored, if the present holder foreswore the British Crown and declared loyalty to the US.

By the time of the Civil War, the land east of the Mississippi had almost all been granted out, except for a few pockets no one wanted at the moment. That's the reason for the eastern part of the map. in 1862, the first Homestead Act was passed, 160 acres each to "genuine homesteaders." The idea was you had to live on the land and there were other requirements. The political motive was to promote the ownership of land by former slaves, women, young men - any one who hadn't taken up arms against the Union. Of course, there was a lot of corruption in the system, with large land owners splicing together tracts occupied by servants and even worse abuses.

Problem was, as you went further west, the more land it took to support a family. Also, the original idea of the 160 acres and a family farm was unworkable in the west. It wasn't crop land and it took a helluva lot of it even to run enough cattle to get by, which is still the situation in Nevada. In fact, the last Homestead Act, sometime around 1915-18, allowed 640 acre grants in western Nebraska (still not enough for grazing). So the Crown (Federal Government) was left holding vast tracts of land not wanted by anyone. This is the case till today.

Over the years, a patchwork system of leases, mineral claims, grazing leases, etc., developed. The BLM was created to try and bring some semblance of order to the situation. I'd say their results were mixed, but it was probably better for the consolidation.

Now, for an important part of the Common Law, which we've lived under for centuries. One cannot adversely possess (squat) against the Crown. IOW, your family may have occupied land in federal ownership for generations. Legally, it means nothing, since all title comes from the federal government - nowhere else, period. That's the reason these fanciful notions of Bundy that the state of Nevada owns the land in question amuses me. Nevada doesn't support it at all. (Incidentally, if Nevada had not come out with a strong constitution repudiating armed rebellion, it would not have had a ghost's chance of being admitted to the Union.) His position, and similar ones, flies in the face of centuries-old accepted law, which is part of the foundation and constitution of our country was built. Our founding fathers would just shake their heads at the thought that a state could hold title superior to the title of the federal government. That was settled first in 1781 and given a big final "exclamation point" in the Civil War. My GGF, a member of the Union League, had all of his property confiscated by the confederate state of Alabama in the 1860s. He sued for compensation immediately after the war. He had no luck. They defended successfully on the grounds that the property was taken by an illegal rebel government (although the faces in government in 1867 were almost the same). So much for state ownership of federal lands...
 
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Tide1986

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There are very good reasons for the map. Under the Common Law, which our country was formed from, title to land always flows from the sovereign. First, it was from the Crown, then, later, our federal government, as the successor sovereign to the Crown. All attorneys are taught this in law school. It is woven through our constitution, its amendments and all court decisions interpreting it. In the east, it didn't take that much land to support a family, so the land grants were smaller. When I first started practicing law, standard practice was to trace title all the way back to the land grant. Now, titles are not checked back nearly so far. Land grants which were given by the English crown were honored, if the present holder foreswore the British Crown and declared loyalty to the US.

By the time of the Civil War, the land east of the Mississippi had almost all been granted out, except for a few pockets no one wanted at the moment. That's the reason for the eastern part of the map. in 1862, the first Homestead Act was passed, 160 acres each to "genuine homesteaders." The idea was you had to live on the land and there were other requirements. The political motive was to promote the ownership of land by former slaves, women, young men - any one who hadn't taken up arms against the Union. Of course, there was a lot of corruption in the system, with large land owners splicing together tracts occupied by servants and even worse abuses.

Problem was, as you went further west, the more land it took to support a family. Also, the original idea of the 160 acres and a family farm was unworkable in the west. It wasn't crop land and it took a helluva lot of it even to run enough cattle to get by, which is still the situation in Nevada. In fact, the last Homestead Act, sometime around 1915-18, allowed 640 acre grants in western Nebraska (still not enough for grazing). So the Crown (Federal Government) was left holding vast tracts of land not wanted by anyone. This is the case till today.

Over the years, a patchwork system of leases, mineral claims, grazing leases, etc., developed. The BLM was created to try and bring some semblance of order to the situation. I'd say their results were mixed, but it was probably better for the consolidation.

Now, for an important part of the Common Law, which we've lived under for centuries. One cannot adversely possess (squat) against the Crown. IOW, your family may have occupied land in federal ownership for generations. Legally, it means nothing, since all title comes from the federal government - nowhere else, period. That's the reason these fanciful notions of Bundy that the state of Nevada owns the land in question amuses me. Nevada doesn't support it at all. (Incidentally, if Nevada had not come out with a strong constitution repudiating armed rebellion, it would not have had a ghost's chance of being admitted to the Union.) His position, and similar ones, flies in the face of centuries-old accepted law, which is part of the foundation and constitution of our country was built. Our founding fathers would just shake their heads at the thought that a state could hold title superior to the title of the federal government. That was settled first in 1781 and given a big final "exclamation point" in the Civil War. My GGF, a member of the Union League, had all of his property confiscated by the confederate state of Alabama in the 1860s. He sued for compensation immediately after the war. He had no luck. They defended successfully on the grounds that the property was taken by an illegal rebel government (although the faces in government in 1867 were almost the same). So much for state ownership of federal lands...
To further clarify your point, let's take as an example the sovereign State of Virginia before and after 1788 (or any other sovereign State in existence before 1792 if you like).

Immediately following independence from Great Britain, who owned the State of Virginia?

Immediately following ratification of the Constitution, who owned the State of Virginia?
 
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TIDE-HSV

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To further clarify your point, let's take as an example the sovereign State of Virginia before and after 1788 (or any other sovereign State in existence before 1792 if you like).

Immediately following independence from Great Britain, who owned the State of Virginia?

Immediately following ratification of the Constitution, who owned the State of Virginia?
Virginia is not the best example, because practically all land, including the mountains, was already in private hands, it had been settled so long. The same is true of the most heavily populated states in the central Atlantic seaboard states. However, the far north and far south still had large tracts with ownership still in the Crown. Upon the adoption of the Constitution, and the formation of the union (and the rejection of the principle of a mere confederation) those lands passed into the federal government. No one has ever seriously questioned it recently. Or, better phrased - no one serious has ever questioned it in recent times. In the early line of cases this principle was reaffirmed over and over. It's never brought up any more...
 
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bamachile

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I'm really enjoying this discussion, BTW. It may sound like academic quibbling to some, but it's very educational for me. I suppose it's my background of dealing with regulatory issues, but i find philosophical and legal arguments interesting, especially when they intertwine.
 

TIDE-HSV

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I'm really enjoying this discussion, BTW. It may sound like academic quibbling to some, but it's very educational for me. I suppose it's my background of dealing with regulatory issues, but i find philosophical and legal arguments interesting, especially when they intertwine.
I'm just outlining what they teach you in Property I in law school. I'm not saying it's the best system or the only system. I'm just explaining the federal government ended up owning so much land. We took our system straight from England and just substituted the federal government for the Crown. In Canada, they still call them "the crown lands," what would be in the ownership of the federal government here. This is despite the long independence of Canada...
 

bamachile

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I'm just outlining what they teach you in Property I in law school. I'm not saying it's the best system or the only system. I'm just explaining the federal government ended up owning so much land. We took our system straight from England and just substituted the federal government for the Crown. In Canada, they still call them "the crown lands," what would be in the ownership of the federal government here. This is despite the long independence of Canada...
I have sort of an academic question, if you don't mind. Louisiana is an anomaly in many legal matters, as you know, due to it's use of French Napoleonic Code as a legal basis vice English Common Law. I'm sure the Federal position would remain unchanged, but would the state's position regarding property be substantially different?
 

TIDE-HSV

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I have sort of an academic question, if you don't mind. Louisiana is an anomaly in many legal matters, as you know, due to it's use of French Napoleonic Code as a legal basis vice English Common Law. I'm sure the Federal position would remain unchanged, but would the state's position regarding property be substantially different?
The only part of the Purchase which followed the Napoleonic Code and which kept it afterwards was Louisiana, which has a strange hybrid. Anytime state laws conflict with federal law, federal law prevails. However, the Louisiana Purchase is an interesting situation. It was the first acquisition which involved land which we didn't inherit directly by reason of our victory over Britain. In the LP case, land grants given earlier by the French Crown were honored, title-wise. Unclaimed land passed into federal ownership, just as explained above. The same thing happened with the property acquired later from Mexico by treaty and Indian lands obtained by treaty. It's worth noting that all the European codes came initially from the old Roman Code. They're more similar than different. It's a totally different perspective than English common law. All law must be written down into statutes, which the courts then interpret. Also, there's no obligation on a court to honor precedent. Any court is free to disagree with the interpretation of any other court - or even its own prior interpretation...
 

bamachile

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It's worth noting that all the European codes came initially from the old Roman Code. They're more similar than different. It's a totally different perspective than English common law. All law must be written down into statutes, which the courts then interpret. Also, there's no obligation on a court to honor precedent. Any court is free to disagree with the interpretation of any other court - or even its own prior interpretation...
The English Channel strikes again. You've seen the cartoon with the light bulb coming on over a guy's head? I just had that moment. Thanks, Earle.
 

Tidewater

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Virginia is not the best example, because practically all land, including the mountains, was already in private hands, it had been settled so long. The same is true of the most heavily populated states in the central Atlantic seaboard states. However, the far north and far south still had large tracts with ownership still in the Crown. Upon the adoption of the Constitution, and the formation of the union (and the rejection of the principle of a mere confederation) those lands passed into the federal government. No one has ever seriously questioned it recently. Or, better phrased - no one serious has ever questioned it in recent times. In the early line of cases this principle was reaffirmed over and over. It's never brought up any more...
The Old Northwest (Kentucky, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin and southeastern Minnesota) was Virginia's* and was donated to the United States on condition that slave not be allowed to go there.
North Carolina owned Tennessee and Georgia owned all the land to its west at independence from Great Britain. Both ceded the land to the United States for the creation of new states.

West of the Mississippi is a different story.

* Massachusetts and Connecticut claimed part of the land as well, but since they did not lift so much as a finger to liberate it during the Revolution and Virginia troops, acting under Virginia officers and paid for by Virginia tax moneys did conquer the land, Virginia's was by far the best claim.
 

Tidewater

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I am as happy as anybody whenever the Federal government gets told to go commit an unnatural act in itself, but Bundy's case is a bad one. The ownership of the land is in Federal hands. Just because Bundy believes that the BLM should spend more money improving that land (which I take to mean, maintaining/repairing roads, culverts, etc.) does not give him the right to not pay rent to the owner.
This is not a State's Rights issue, in my book. It is simple law enforcement issue.

Now, if Nevada seceded, I believe the land would go to the Nevada government, and the Nevada government would have a moral obligation to pay the Federal government for the formerly Federal land. Absent that payment, the Federal government would be justified in going to war for the money, as long as the Federal government was willing to kill people for money.
They've done it before.
 
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