HUNH, No Substitutions, Fatigue and Sports Injuries

IH8Orange

Hall of Fame
Aug 14, 2000
7,017
31
0
Trussville, AL, USA
The HUNH coaches say that their offensive style does not cause a higher risk of sports injuries, but that's ridiculous. Let me preface by saying that I am not suggesting that the HUNH be abolished or anything like that. I'm just saying that the fast-pace, prevention of substitutions, and prevention of hydration that are the byproducts of that style of play do create a more dangerous situation for athletes and it is incorrect to state otherwise.

There are multiple studies (1, 2, 3) that show that fatigue (both short-term and long-term induced) causes joints to react differently than they do in non-fatigued situations. The protocol used for the short-term induced fatigue in one study was vaguely similar (a bit longer in duration at 6 minutes and the study was performed on female soccer players that would be in better cardiovascular shape than a typical defensive lineman) to what might be experienced by a player during a fast-paced, no-breaks, no-substitutions HUNH drive. This study concluded

This short-time frame to induce fatigue had the same effects than other long lasting protocols (e.g., decreased knee and hip flexion, and increased knee internal rotation) (Greig & Siegler, 2009). This raises two points: (i) the neuromuscular adaptations are dependent on the intensity of the exercise and duration of the activity, thus athletes may be injured earlier in the game/practice if played at a high level of intensity during short period...
There are some other studies that have found that female athletes are more susceptible to fatigue-induced connective tissue injuries than male athletes, but I think that it would be ludicrous to believe that fatigue does not play some part in connective tissue injuries in men as well.

There's one study that shows that a higher average time-on-ice instead of total time-on-ice for hockey players correlates to higher incidence of concussions. This would also infer that short-term induced fatigue is a factor in concussions.

Then there's the fact of hydration. In the non-HUNH style of play, substitutions are made and this gives players the ability to come off the field not only for some short term rest, but also to re-hydrate. The American College of Sports Medicine published a roundtable on hydration and here are some excerpts:

Reducing dehydration by ingesting fluid before and at regular intervals during exercise delays fatigue and increases work capacity when uncompensable heat stress occurs.

Adequate fluid replacement increases the body temperature that can be tolerated prior to heat intolerance and exhaustion during uncompensable heat stress.

The cause of muscle cramps during and immediately after exercise is not known, but is thought to be related to salt loss, dehydration, and muscle fatigue accompanying exercise.
Not having the ability to re-hydrate certainly could be creating some risks for the health of these student-athletes.

Many of the proponents of HUNH say that it's the responsibility of the defense to have their players in better shape (or use smaller, lighter players) to reduce the risk of injuries, but the studies prove that the higher intensity and lower frequency of breaks for hydration is more dangerous for any athlete. It may be less dangerous for better conditioned athletes, but there is still increased risk regardless. In many cases, it seems that HUNH offenses will purposely go to the fast pace when the defense has brought in larger, less-conditioned athletes for a situational play in order to try to take advantage of him, so it seems as if they are attempting to cause fatigue in those at-risk players for their own gain.

I can understand that tactic and it makes sense. However, the HUNH proponents should not naively state that there isn't an increased danger of injury when they purposely attempt to fatigue a larger player when there are studies that EXPLICITLY state that fatigue does increase the risk of connective tissue injury and even concussion. I have no illusions that Bama's physical style of play using larger players and a violent running game causes injuries to opposing players (pure physics of momentum). That's our tactic, it works for us, and their tactic works for them.

There is one aspect of the HUNH game that I hate. When a defensive player does become overly fatigued and needs to come out or sustains some form of injury, the HUNH coaches start throwing a fit and their crowds begin to boo the player, inferring by default that the player is faking the injury to produce a break in play. That INFURIATES me. Their style of play is MEANT to fatigue players, so why do they react so violently when they succeed in taking down a defensive player either by fatigue or injury? They have no way to know if the injury is legitimate or not, so they should hold their judgement until they know for sure. How will they feel one day when a guy breaks his neck during one of their HUNH paced plays and hears the crowd booing him and the opposing coach screaming insults at him?

In last years Auburn game, Brandon Ivory goes down at about the 3:50 mark in the 3rd quarter. He's a big boy and I'm sure he was quite fatigued at this point, but he is involved with one OL and another engages him from behind, he goes down and the second OL lands on him hard on the back of his knee. Since the second lineman engaged him high, it wasn't a chop block, but he was still hit hard from behind while his legs were dug in to exert force against the lineman he initially engaged. Ivory as far as I can tell never looks over at the Bama bench, attempts to get up, and it is evident that his apparent injury is to the very knee on which that Auburn lineman landed. Of course, the fanbase begins to boo and Malzahn is pointing and griping as the Bama trainers go out to check on Ivory.

When players are injured against Bama, the crowd typically goes silent and then they cheer the player as he leaves the field. That's the respectful way to do it. I wonder if those HUNH fanbases will boo their own guys that are injured during a HUNH run? Probably not. Their players are allowed to be injured. It's just the opposition that shouldn't.

This is what makes me despise the HUNH, the coaches that use it, and the fanbases of those programs. I had no real ill will against Gus Malzahn until that play. I now hope he's the most pathetic failure in the history of pathetic failures and will be nominated for the presidency of the Pathetic Failure club, only to lose by one vote to a guy who gave Salmonella poisoning to the judges on Hell's Kitchen with undercooked eggs in his dish.
 

CrimsonForce

Hall of Fame
Dec 20, 2012
12,757
94
67
The HUNH coaches say that their offensive style does not cause a higher risk of sports injuries, but that's ridiculous. Let me preface by saying that I am not suggesting that the HUNH be abolished or anything like that. I'm just saying that the fast-pace, prevention of substitutions, and prevention of hydration that are the byproducts of that style of play do create a more dangerous situation for athletes and it is incorrect to state otherwise.

There are multiple studies (1, 2, 3) that show that fatigue (both short-term and long-term induced) causes joints to react differently than they do in non-fatigued situations. The protocol used for the short-term induced fatigue in one study was vaguely similar (a bit longer in duration at 6 minutes and the study was performed on female soccer players that would be in better cardiovascular shape than a typical defensive lineman) to what might be experienced by a player during a fast-paced, no-breaks, no-substitutions HUNH drive. This study concluded



There are some other studies that have found that female athletes are more susceptible to fatigue-induced connective tissue injuries than male athletes, but I think that it would be ludicrous to believe that fatigue does not play some part in connective tissue injuries in men as well.

There's one study that shows that a higher average time-on-ice instead of total time-on-ice for hockey players correlates to higher incidence of concussions. This would also infer that short-term induced fatigue is a factor in concussions.

Then there's the fact of hydration. In the non-HUNH style of play, substitutions are made and this gives players the ability to come off the field not only for some short term rest, but also to re-hydrate. The American College of Sports Medicine published a roundtable on hydration and here are some excerpts:



Not having the ability to re-hydrate certainly could be creating some risks for the health of these student-athletes.

Many of the proponents of HUNH say that it's the responsibility of the defense to have their players in better shape (or use smaller, lighter players) to reduce the risk of injuries, but the studies prove that the higher intensity and lower frequency of breaks for hydration is more dangerous for any athlete. It may be less dangerous for better conditioned athletes, but there is still increased risk regardless. In many cases, it seems that HUNH offenses will purposely go to the fast pace when the defense has brought in larger, less-conditioned athletes for a situational play in order to try to take advantage of him, so it seems as if they are attempting to cause fatigue in those at-risk players for their own gain.

I can understand that tactic and it makes sense. However, the HUNH proponents should not naively state that there isn't an increased danger of injury when they purposely attempt to fatigue a larger player when there are studies that EXPLICITLY state that fatigue does increase the risk of connective tissue injury and even concussion. I have no illusions that Bama's physical style of play using larger players and a violent running game causes injuries to opposing players (pure physics of momentum). That's our tactic, it works for us, and their tactic works for them.

There is one aspect of the HUNH game that I hate. When a defensive player does become overly fatigued and needs to come out or sustains some form of injury, the HUNH coaches start throwing a fit and their crowds begin to boo the player, inferring by default that the player is faking the injury to produce a break in play. That INFURIATES me. Their style of play is MEANT to fatigue players, so why do they react so violently when they succeed in taking down a defensive player either by fatigue or injury? They have no way to know if the injury is legitimate or not, so they should hold their judgement until they know for sure. How will they feel one day when a guy breaks his neck during one of their HUNH paced plays and hears the crowd booing him and the opposing coach screaming insults at him?

In last years Auburn game, Brandon Ivory goes down at about the 3:50 mark in the 3rd quarter. He's a big boy and I'm sure he was quite fatigued at this point, but he is involved with one OL and another engages him from behind, he goes down and the second OL lands on him hard on the back of his knee. Since the second lineman engaged him high, it wasn't a chop block, but he was still hit hard from behind while his legs were dug in to exert force against the lineman he initially engaged. Ivory as far as I can tell never looks over at the Bama bench, attempts to get up, and it is evident that his apparent injury is to the very knee on which that Auburn lineman landed. Of course, the fanbase begins to boo and Malzahn is pointing and griping as the Bama trainers go out to check on Ivory.

When players are injured against Bama, the crowd typically goes silent and then they cheer the player as he leaves the field. That's the respectful way to do it. I wonder if those HUNH fanbases will boo their own guys that are injured during a HUNH run? Probably not. Their players are allowed to be injured. It's just the opposition that shouldn't.

This is what makes me despise the HUNH, the coaches that use it, and the fanbases of those programs. I had no real ill will against Gus Malzahn until that play. I now hope he's the most pathetic failure in the history of pathetic failures and will be nominated for the presidency of the Pathetic Failure club, only to lose by one vote to a guy who gave Salmonella poisoning to the judges on Hell's Kitchen with undercooked eggs in his dish.
You need to do a TLDR on this.
 

257WBY

Suspended
Aug 20, 2011
2,077
1
0
Thanks for the lesson on girls sports. A defensive unit can get a three and out and come off the field. They can substitute players on different series. An injured player can stay on the ground. Sounds like you have an axe to grind about HUNH.
 

alwayshavebeen

All-SEC
Sep 22, 2013
1,213
110
82
North Carolina
Thanks for the lesson on girls sports. A defensive unit can get a three and out and come off the field. They can substitute players on different series. An injured player can stay on the ground. Sounds like you have an axe to grind about HUNH.
In simple terms he is exactly right...during long sequences of plays, players...especially the big guys... get tired and are more likely to get injured. I don't see how that can be denied.
 

KrAzY3

Hall of Fame
Jan 18, 2006
10,617
4,542
187
44
kraizy.art
Thanks for the lesson on girls sports. A defensive unit can get a three and out and come off the field. They can substitute players on different series. An injured player can stay on the ground. Sounds like you have an axe to grind about HUNH.
And you have no bias either? You're the Baylor fan, right?

We all have bias, but he's putting forth an argument that Nick Saban made as well. I guess we can say that he had an axe to grind, but it's also a valid point. Fatigue leads to injuries, and I personally find it morally questionable to build an offense around not letting people off the field and furthermore, the notion that someone has to be injured so badly that they have to fall to the ground in order to come out.

Think of all the times you've been hurt over your lifetime. Now, think about how many of those times the injury was actually so severe that you couldn't stand. It's ridiculous that we now have that as the standard to be able to come out of the game.
 

CrimsonProf

Hall of Fame
Dec 30, 2006
5,716
69
67
Birmingham, Alabama
Thanks for the lesson on girls sports. A defensive unit can get a three and out and come off the field. They can substitute players on different series. An injured player can stay on the ground. Sounds like you have an axe to grind about HUNH.
Yes, we do have an axe to grind.

I'm pretty sure you've got an axe to bring with anything other than Baylor football and Mississippi high school sports.
 

TIDE-HSV

Senior Administrator
Staff member
Oct 13, 1999
84,609
39,826
437
Huntsville, AL,USA
Yes, we do have an axe to grind.

I'm pretty sure you've got an axe to bring with anything other than Baylor football and Mississippi high school sports.
He won't be posting for a while. He's been suspended before, but he keeps coming back with the snarly, sarcastic posts. His shtick has grown a bit then. He needs to go back to the Baylor boards (I guess they have them) and stay there...
 

IH8Orange

Hall of Fame
Aug 14, 2000
7,017
31
0
Trussville, AL, USA
Thanks for the lesson on girls sports. A defensive unit can get a three and out and come off the field. They can substitute players on different series. An injured player can stay on the ground. Sounds like you have an axe to grind about HUNH.
I have several axes to grind:


  1. The proponents of HUNH deny the increased danger of injury when the medical establishment clearly states otherwise. Then they make snide remarks about anyone that points out the obvious.
  2. The coaches that run HUNH berate players that may be legitimately injured because they apparently have forgotten that injuries occur in football (and are even more likely during the non-stop intense activity of a HUNH drive) and have become so narcissistic or defensive that they see every opponent injury as a devious attempt to stop their unrelenting attack. How would they like to hear their own players booed by the opposing crowd when they are legitimately injured? How would they like to hear the opposing coach accusing one of their injured players of "faking" an injury without any proof? How would they feel if one of their players was having some health issue and really needed to come out of the game, but couldn't due to the lack of substitutions and the fear that he'd be booed and accused of faking an injury and then sustained a major injury on the next play as a result?
  3. The fans of HUNH teams boo players that may be seriously injured because they were unlucky enough to be injured during one of the opposition's fast-pace drives. It's bad enough when a player is injured but when he is also booed by the crowd just because his misfortune caused an unwanted break in play, that is the epitome of classlessness.


I remember games long before HUNH appeared where Bama's offense had momentum and was just imposing its will on an opponent's defense and suddenly one of the opponent's defenders sustained an injury, causing an extended period of inactivity. When the teams took the field again, Bama's momentum was gone and the drive fizzled. I never recall a Bama coach running out onto the field angry and acting like a fool accusing the injured player of faking the injury to stop our momentum and I definitely never recall a Bama crowd booing the injured player. The only time I remember a Bama coach getting in a tizzy about a stoppage of play when our offense was on a roll was when Gene Stallings (I believe) got angry because a stray dog was running around on the field during a bowl game and the security staff couldn't get it off the field. There was a delay of several minutes in the game and if I recall correctly, it did zap our offensive momentum.

So the delays from injuries and other reasons also can adversely affect the momentum of even non-HUNH offenses. It's just that some coaches and fanbases don't act like unsympathetic and uncaring jerks when they occur.
 

B1GTide

TideFans Legend
Apr 13, 2012
45,588
47,158
187
I have no doubt that fatigue leads to injury - all fatigue, no matter its point of origin. But I have been wrong before so make no assumptions that my certainty translates to factual correctness. For that reason I don't fault those asking for a more complete study of the causation. I only ask that we put in place reasonable measures to protect the players while time is granted for those studies. If widely accepted proof cannot be provided within a reasonable time period (say, 3 years), then the measures are dropped.
 

glasscutter256

All-American
Jan 31, 2009
2,173
29
67
Huntsville
I have no doubt that fatigue leads to injury - all fatigue, no matter its point of origin. But I have been wrong before so make no assumptions that my certainty translates to factual correctness. For that reason I don't fault those asking for a more complete study of the causation. I only ask that we put in place reasonable measures to protect the players while time is granted for those studies. If widely accepted proof cannot be provided within a reasonable time period (say, 3 years), then the measures are dropped.
Sounds fair. The only problem with 3 years is that it may not be long enough to study the long-term effects. You have to look 10-15 years down the road to see the ultimate effects. Unfortunately, no one will allow that much time for an injury/concussion study to test the effects of the HUNH.
I don't see anything wrong with the 10 second clock. Very few plays are snapped within the 10 seconds. What is the big deal? They want to keep tired players on the field.
 

IH8Orange

Hall of Fame
Aug 14, 2000
7,017
31
0
Trussville, AL, USA
I have no doubt that fatigue leads to injury - all fatigue, no matter its point of origin. But I have been wrong before so make no assumptions that my certainty translates to factual correctness. For that reason I don't fault those asking for a more complete study of the causation. I only ask that we put in place reasonable measures to protect the players while time is granted for those studies. If widely accepted proof cannot be provided within a reasonable time period (say, 3 years), then the measures are dropped.
The statements bolded above sound very similar to the NCAA's justification for not overturning the penalty on targeting fouls even if the replay booth rules that targeting did not occur. I believe that their basic premise was that officials might not make the call if they thought that there was a possibility of the penalty being overturned and so, (allegedly) BECAUSE THE NCAA PUTS PLAYER SAFETY BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE, they made the rule so that the penalty would remain in effect and only the ejection of the player would be overturned.

If the NCAA is so gung-ho about player safety that they will make a rule that punishes a team for a penalty that didn't occur just to ensure that officials have the confidence to throw the flag even if they have doubts about the accuracy of the call, then it does seem that they would remain true to that razor focus on player safety and make some rule that allows substitutions after some given number of plays or at least allows trainers to run out on the field and give the players some quick hydration. I suspect that the increased entertainment value (and associated $$$) that they suspect is provided by the higher scores of games in which HUNH offenses participate pushes player safety down the list a bit.

The targeting rule, even though it is unquestionably unfair as it is enforced, never really hurt offenses because I don't recall ever seeing an offensive player who lowered his head and initiated contact called for the penalty. Therefore, it did not adversely affect the high-scoring offenses. In fact, since it was basically only called against defensive players, it helped offenses even when the targeting foul did not occur. It was a win-win for high-scoring offenses because if they could do anything to make it even APPEAR that a defensive player had targeted, they got their free 15 yards and a new set of downs to help them add on more points. Maybe that was why the NCAA made the rule so that the penalty remained. Just like the NFL, they are doing everything possible to remove defense from the game of football. If a few players get hurt in the proce$$, that's just collateral damage.
 

bamamc1

Hall of Fame
Oct 24, 2011
5,435
3,992
187
Haleyville, AL
I have several axes to grind:


  1. The proponents of HUNH deny the increased danger of injury when the medical establishment clearly states otherwise. Then they make snide remarks about anyone that points out the obvious.
  2. The coaches that run HUNH berate players that may be legitimately injured because they apparently have forgotten that injuries occur in football (and are even more likely during the non-stop intense activity of a HUNH drive) and have become so narcissistic or defensive that they see every opponent injury as a devious attempt to stop their unrelenting attack. How would they like to hear their own players booed by the opposing crowd when they are legitimately injured? How would they like to hear the opposing coach accusing one of their injured players of "faking" an injury without any proof? How would they feel if one of their players was having some health issue and really needed to come out of the game, but couldn't due to the lack of substitutions and the fear that he'd be booed and accused of faking an injury and then sustained a major injury on the next play as a result?
  3. The fans of HUNH teams boo players that may be seriously injured because they were unlucky enough to be injured during one of the opposition's fast-pace drives. It's bad enough when a player is injured but when he is also booed by the crowd just because his misfortune caused an unwanted break in play, that is the epitome of classlessness.


I remember games long before HUNH appeared where Bama's offense had momentum and was just imposing its will on an opponent's defense and suddenly one of the opponent's defenders sustained an injury, causing an extended period of inactivity. When the teams took the field again, Bama's momentum was gone and the drive fizzled. I never recall a Bama coach running out onto the field angry and acting like a fool accusing the injured player of faking the injury to stop our momentum and I definitely never recall a Bama crowd booing the injured player. The only time I remember a Bama coach getting in a tizzy about a stoppage of play when our offense was on a roll was when Gene Stallings (I believe) got angry because a stray dog was running around on the field during a bowl game and the security staff couldn't get it off the field. There was a delay of several minutes in the game and if I recall correctly, it did zap our offensive momentum.

So the delays from injuries and other reasons also can adversely affect the momentum of even non-HUNH offenses. It's just that some coaches and fanbases don't act like unsympathetic and uncaring jerks when they occur.
This team has learned how to slow down the HUNH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtEmJDncQgM
 

kat4bama

3rd Team
Aug 27, 2009
282
12
37
I hate it because it is a gimmicky offense that teams use who can't play head to head with good teams. They have to win by keeping teams from substituting.
 

BamaPokerplayer

All-American
Oct 10, 2004
3,112
149
82
More plays will equal more injuries. I just can't wait until the odds balance out and one year there is a rash of injuries because of HUNH.
 

davefrat

Hall of Fame
Jun 4, 2002
5,232
4,042
282
Hopewell, VA
if fatigue from injury is the issue and it's real, then the ncaa needs to ban fbs schools from playing fcs schools because they don't have the depth to rotate and compete without putting exhausted players on the field regardless of the type of offense they are playing against.
 

Bama Lee

All-American
Oct 13, 1999
4,139
1,731
287
56
Dallas, TX
I am surprised that other teams didn't try some of these same arguments against Alabama with our physicality and the domination of the 4th quarter. The CPB teams of old simply pummeled opponents until they were physically incapable of stopping us in the 4th qtr. CNS teams lend credence to that same philosophy.
 

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