Offensive Production in the Saban Era

B1GTide

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I think that Coach Saban has been pretty roundly criticized for his approach to the Auburn game for a while now. What has not been well covered has been the decline of the Alabama secondary after Smart moved away from that group, and the coorelation of the two. Saban still had the DBs but there was a considerable drop-off. That was partially due to a talent drop-off, but not entirely. Smart turned Arenas into a super-star. Who knows what Smart could have done with some of these other kids.

I, for one, am excited to see what Alabama's secondary will look like this season with Smart working with the DBs again. I think that Saban realized that he wasn't getting the job done on his own back there, and he also knows where Smart can best help.
 

CajunCrimson

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Yeah we could have...but our defense could have also held teams within four touchdowns of what we were giving up for the year. My goodness, like I said, NOBODY, is going to place any blame on Kirby, or Nick..the chosen perfect ones. They are beyond reproach and have never made a mistake.
Nuss? Oh he was totally incompetent! It was all his fault.
sip
3 NC in 5 years -- and the 2 years we missed, we were right on the edge of playing in the BCSNG --
I think Nick and Kirby have built up enough credit points to avoid criticism --

Nuss -- had not earned any credit in the minds of our fans -- thus he can be the scapegoat.
 

JDCrimson

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From my view, I think the only 2 losses that you can lay at the feet of Nuss are the A&M 2012 and Oklahoma last year. His playcalling in the in the first quarter in the A&M '12 game was terrible allowing us to get into a 21pt deficit. Then at the end of the game when the Aggies clearly were spent at the LOS he decides to pass when 4 runs from the 6yd line would have won the game. Against Oklahoma, I think he took too aggressive of a plan either because he knew he was out the door or there was a plan to showcase AJ for the draft. Either way it backfired mightily. The Auburn loss last year is on the defense and special teams in my opinion.

Really and truly, though, the season rested on how the secondary and OL played - which were both well below expectations. We played like a team that after the LSU game wanted to coast until it got to the SEC championship - coaches included. Something really happened in the latter part of the season. You know that Nuss wasnt looking to be the OC at Michigan after the LSU win. In reality, at that point in time, he and several of the other coaches were probably wondering what head jobs the would be considered for at the end of the season. And too, at that point in time, I dont think that CNS really had any reason to complain about the offensive production to date (unless there were chemistry issues, etc). Sometime between the MSU game and the Auburn game chemistry within the team really began to breakdown - its apparent. So I dont think its fair to lay all the blame on Nuss. There were just too many other issues affecting the team.
 

TouchThatThang

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O.K. Audio, let's just say I agree that Nuss was just, "OK", in the games against AU and Oklahoma.
How would you rate Coach Smart's and Coach Saban's performance coaching the defense in those two games?
sip
We met teams that took advantage of our scheme. CNS built the perfect scheme to stop regular-tempo offenses but that backfired this season. Still, we only gave up 28 against an extremely potent Auburn offense. The defense did a reasonable job in putting us in the position to win.

And those were hardly his only bad games. Late 2012 it seemed like every game he insisted on putting the game in AJ's hands despite the fact that he had rib injuries and clearly was not a hundred percent (his performances against LSU and Georgia were actually quite terrible minus the last minute heroics). And how about two touchdowns against VT and the games against Ole Miss and Mississippi State?
 

Alasippi

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Aug 31, 2007
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From my view, I think the only 2 losses that you can lay at the feet of Nuss are the A&M 2012 and Oklahoma last year. His playcalling in the in the first quarter in the A&M '12 game was terrible allowing us to get into a 21pt deficit. Then at the end of the game when the Aggies clearly were spent at the LOS he decides to pass when 4 runs from the 6yd line would have won the game. Against Oklahoma, I think he took too aggressive of a plan either because he knew he was out the door or there was a plan to showcase AJ for the draft. Either way it backfired mightily. The Auburn loss last year is on the defense and special teams in my opinion.

Really and truly, though, the season rested on how the secondary and OL played - which were both well below expectations. We played like a team that after the LSU game wanted to coast until it got to the SEC championship - coaches included. Something really happened in the latter part of the season. You know that Nuss wasnt looking to be the OC at Michigan after the LSU win. In reality, at that point in time, he and several of the other coaches were probably wondering what head jobs the would be considered for at the end of the season. And too, at that point in time, I dont think that CNS really had any reason to complain about the offensive production to date (unless there were chemistry issues, etc). Sometime between the MSU game and the Auburn game chemistry within the team really began to breakdown - its apparent. So I dont think its fair to lay all the blame on Nuss. There were just too many other issues affecting the team.
Great post. That's basically all I was trying to say. Certainly Nuss deserves some of the blame, but not every single ounce of it, which was the vibe I was picking up from reading the thread, and therefore, defended his overall performance.
I agree 100% that our two really big problem areas last year were our offensive line and our secondary, and Nuss didn't coach either of those positions.
He also wasn't our defensive co-ordinator, and, not being ugly, but our defense didn't show up in our biggest games last year with the exception of LSU.
Coach Smart has done a consistently great job, but he had a couple of bad games last year.
We looked lost against Auburn, and even more lost against Oklahoma.
Me recognizing that isn't degrading him. It happens to everybody.
I just got tired of all the 100% blame being placed on Nuss.
If I offended anyone I apologize. That wasn't my intent.
I just wanted folks to try and at least look at my point.
sip
 

cuda.1973

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Some of us think the offense should take more of the blame. Maybe someone like SBT needs to come with the stats on how many times we went 3-and-out, or played behind the sticks on 2nd down, or went backwards on 3rd-and-short.

Any D will eventually break, if they are on the field too much.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Great post Selma but I think you meant the triple headed monster of Yeldon-Drake-Henry. I would also disagree that we really had a triple headed monster since Derrick basically played in 2 games all season.
No, I didn't.

In 2012, I'm counting Lacy and Yeldon as 1 and 2.

In 2013, Yeldon was number one and the three-headed back (Drake-Henry-Hart) as the other. Yes, the others tended to play less than Drake.
 

selmaborntidefan

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In the three losses we experienced during Nuss's tenure, to Texas A&M, Auburn, and Oklahoma we averaged scoring 27.3 points per game. 24, 28, and 31.
Our defense, in those games gave up 29, 34, and 45 points, an average of 36 points per game.
How many turnovers did the defense have in those three games? Zero.
How many did the offense have? 3+0+7 = 10

That was close to four touchdowns per game over the season average we had allowed.
However, there's a flip side to that.

Texas A/M - one TD drive was 41 yards (after the McCarron to Bell slant pick on deflection)

Oklahoma - Yeldon fumbled at their 8 and OU turned that into a TD (that's at least a 7, possibly a 14-point swing - as Yeldon already had a first down when he fubmled)

McCarron threw a pick that OU ran all the way back to the 13 and got a TD.

Oklahoma's last TD was a fumble recovery for a TD. How in the world can anyone blame that on the defense?

So the actual numbers of points given up by the D are: 29, 28 (the FG return was not the defense's fault, either) and 38, but even the 38 is misleading since an additional 14 were when the D started on its heels).

I'll agree that Mcelwain was much better as an offensive coordinator. After all, in Bryant Denny, he was incredible in orchestrating the three points against LSU in the game we lost 6-3.
Actually, we lost 9-6, but it isn't McElwain's fault that Maze misplayed the punt (or whatever actually happened) or that Williams didn't hold onto the ball that LSU intercepted at the goal line.

He really turned on the motor scoring 21 points in the BCS Championship Game.
He scored 21 times as many points as necessary to win; I'm just saying :)


BTW, our defense in those games gave up a total of six points.
Actually, they gave up nine. However, six of those points came on drives that started at the Alabama 8 (AJ's pick returned) and the Tide 25.


So, did the offense win those games? Did Mcelwain?
I think not.
But using a terrible example like the 2011 LSU team that was an absolutely great team is preposterous in the first place. Those two teams were evenly matched and both teams went 1-1.


I've been on this board for I can't even tell you how long, but I can say this with no reservation--I have never seen a negative comment about Kirby Smart or Coach Saban, and his coaching of the secondary.

Then go read this article:

1) aside from a scattered few individual players, Alabama didn’t play like it wanted to win the game, and didn’t coach like it, either.

2) Someone, at some point this offseason, will ask Nick Saban a question along those lines, and he will probably respond that it’s not his job to worry about Auburn.

But it is.

3) Because at some point, someone is going to have to stand up to Nick Saban and pin this game squarely on him. The players deserve plenty of blame in their own right, but a coach’s primary job is to prepare a team mentally for a game like this and that was not done Saturday. Too many mistakes, some small and others large, added up to make Alabama look like anything but the No. 1 team in the nation.

The fact is, in the games we lost in the last two years, it wasn't Nuss's fault. We scored way enough points, we just couldn't stop anybody.
We had first and goal at the Aggies 6 AT HOME with four minutes left. The genius called:
a) a pass play that McCarron wound up running for a yard
b) a handoff to Lacy for a yard
c) a pass play that fell apart and McCarron saved by bolting all the way to the three
d) a pass play that was intercepted.

That was atrocious play-calling against an awful defense when we had the best O-line maybe in college football history. Give Lacy three carries and he scores. I pin that one in particular on Nuss' play calling at the critical juncture of the game.

Is he solely to blame? Of course not. But he blew the last good chance.


Everybody focuses on us not making a fourth and a foot against Auburn.
But guess what? We were in Auburn's red zone THREE TIMES in the final quarter and got zero points. It's not just one play, that one play is simply representative.

Did you realize that the only TD we scored in the second half against a lousy Auburn D was the 99-yard bomb to Cooper?



Everybody forgets that our defense let them drive 80 yards in less than a minute, running the ball down our throats, without us ever making one single adjustment, both before the half, and at the end of the game.
No, we remember that. But that wouldn't have mattered if the play calling had done its job. Now - I blame this one a tad less on Nuss, it was a group effort including stupid penalties that you cannot blame on Nuss.



That's Nuss's fault, right? That falls on the shoulders of the OC, right?
No, it doesn't. Getting into the red zone three times without scoring at all? That does fall on him.


With all due respect, with the exception of the 6-3 loss to LSU in 2012,
It was 9-6 in 2011, I'm just saying. :)


we've lost every game we've lost because our defense couldn't get the job done.
So we put the defense on the 13 and say "stop them" and it's their fault? We give OU a TD on a fumble and Auburn a TD on a FG return and it's the D's fault?

I think a lot of this IS a group effort. But Nuss' playcalling was atrocious in some critical situations, most notably 2012 aTm.


If you can't see it, then just think about it for a bit. If you still can't see it, then you're just bitter because a guy left Bama to try and feel appreciated for what he really did and can accomplish.
sip
I don't get overly bitter on coordinators. We still have Saban, and his former coordinators have not exactly set the world on fire as head coaches.
 

Alasippi

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How many turnovers did the defense have in those three games? Zero.
How many did the offense have? 3+0+7 = 10



However, there's a flip side to that.

Texas A/M - one TD drive was 41 yards (after the McCarron to Bell slant pick on deflection)

Oklahoma - Yeldon fumbled at their 8 and OU turned that into a TD (that's at least a 7, possibly a 14-point swing - as Yeldon already had a first down when he fubmled)

McCarron threw a pick that OU ran all the way back to the 13 and got a TD.

Oklahoma's last TD was a fumble recovery for a TD. How in the world can anyone blame that on the defense?

So the actual numbers of points given up by the D are: 29, 28 (the FG return was not the defense's fault, either) and 38, but even the 38 is misleading since an additional 14 were when the D started on its heels).



Actually, we lost 9-6, but it isn't McElwain's fault that Maze misplayed the punt (or whatever actually happened) or that Williams didn't hold onto the ball that LSU intercepted at the goal line.



He scored 21 times as many points as necessary to win; I'm just saying :)




Actually, they gave up nine. However, six of those points came on drives that started at the Alabama 8 (AJ's pick returned) and the Tide 25.




But using a terrible example like the 2011 LSU team that was an absolutely great team is preposterous in the first place. Those two teams were evenly matched and both teams went 1-1.





Then go read this article:

1) aside from a scattered few individual players, Alabama didn’t play like it wanted to win the game, and didn’t coach like it, either.

2) Someone, at some point this offseason, will ask Nick Saban a question along those lines, and he will probably respond that it’s not his job to worry about Auburn.

But it is.

3) Because at some point, someone is going to have to stand up to Nick Saban and pin this game squarely on him. The players deserve plenty of blame in their own right, but a coach’s primary job is to prepare a team mentally for a game like this and that was not done Saturday. Too many mistakes, some small and others large, added up to make Alabama look like anything but the No. 1 team in the nation.



We had first and goal at the Aggies 6 AT HOME with four minutes left. The genius called:
a) a pass play that McCarron wound up running for a yard
b) a handoff to Lacy for a yard
c) a pass play that fell apart and McCarron saved by bolting all the way to the three
d) a pass play that was intercepted.

That was atrocious play-calling against an awful defense when we had the best O-line maybe in college football history. Give Lacy three carries and he scores. I pin that one in particular on Nuss' play calling at the critical juncture of the game.

Is he solely to blame? Of course not. But he blew the last good chance.




But guess what? We were in Auburn's red zone THREE TIMES in the final quarter and got zero points. It's not just one play, that one play is simply representative.

Did you realize that the only TD we scored in the second half against a lousy Auburn D was the 99-yard bomb to Cooper?





No, we remember that. But that wouldn't have mattered if the play calling had done its job. Now - I blame this one a tad less on Nuss, it was a group effort including stupid penalties that you cannot blame on Nuss.





No, it doesn't. Getting into the red zone three times without scoring at all? That does fall on him.




It was 9-6 in 2011, I'm just saying. :)




So we put the defense on the 13 and say "stop them" and it's their fault? We give OU a TD on a fumble and Auburn a TD on a FG return and it's the D's fault?

I think a lot of this IS a group effort. But Nuss' playcalling was atrocious in some critical situations, most notably 2012 aTm.




I don't get overly bitter on coordinators. We still have Saban, and his former coordinators have not exactly set the world on fire as head coaches.
Hey Selma, when you have some time, why don't you dissect my posts...:) You make some good points. sip
 

TideFan in AU

Hall of Fame
I disagree with you completely on the "no one dares to question Saban and Smart" thing. Many here and elsewhere have questioned the secondary, coaching, and even defensive philosophy for defending the HUNH. I'd argue that even CNS saw problems, which why he shuffled the defensive coaching staff like he did this year. I'd also argue that our horrendous lack of a pass rush made our secondary look much worse than they were. You seem to have a "Why is everybody picking on Nuss?" attitude about this, but the way I see it, CNS has made numerous changes to address numerous issues. I'd be more inclined to agree with you if Nuss was the only casualty, but that's not the case. Why are Kevin Brown and Chris Rumph's departures any different than Nussmeier's?

JMO
 

Alasippi

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Aug 31, 2007
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I disagree with you completely on the "no one dares to question Saban and Smart" thing. Many here and elsewhere have questioned the secondary, coaching, and even defensive philosophy for defending the HUNH. I'd argue that even CNS saw problems, which why he shuffled the defensive coaching staff like he did this year. I'd also argue that our horrendous lack of a pass rush made our secondary look much worse than they were. You seem to have a "Why is everybody picking on Nuss?" attitude about this, but the way I see it, CNS has made numerous changes to address numerous issues. I'd be more inclined to agree with you if Nuss was the only casualty, but that's not the case. Why are Kevin Brown and Chris Rumph's departures any different than Nussmeier's?

JMO
From all that I've read about, "Why we lost two games?" I think it would be safe to say, that if an election were held today to select which coach contributed to the two losses most, Coach Nuss would win without a run off. I, like you, believe that there were several reasons we closed poorly, and that's what I was trying to bring out.
So we're really not in disagreement. It's all kind of moot anyway, because in a couple of month's we're all going to be going back and forth about, "this year" as opposed to "last year", and I'll be darn glad when that day gets here!
sip
 

RTR91

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From all that I've read about, "Why we lost two games?" I think it would be safe to say, that if an election were held today to select which coach contributed to the two losses most, Coach Nuss would win without a run off. I, like you, believe that there were several reasons we closed poorly, and that's what I was trying to bring out.
So we're really not in disagreement. It's all kind of moot anyway, because in a couple of month's we're all going to be going back and forth about, "this year" as opposed to "last year", and I'll be darn glad when that day gets here!
sip
Reason for Nuss's victory in that election would be his play calling. For all the defensive issues, the team was still in contention of the Auburn and Oklahoma games. He didn't make play calls that helped the team, though. That is what frustrates so many of us.

Offensive coaches talk about having a chart of scenarios. For the 1st and 10 plays, they have a select few plays they prefer to run. For 3rd and 23, there aren't nearly as many plays. Nuss seemed to look at his chart (assuming he used one) and went with the first play every single time, which lead to an extremely predictable offense.

While the offense in 2012 wasn't statistically better than 2013, they got the job done. How much of the OL was that? Did the best OL in college history cover Nuss's poor play calling? Did Jeff Stoutland make that much of a difference as OL coach? Did Mario Cristobal hurt the OL that much?

The issue that scares me is Saban's part in all of it. How much control of the offense does he have? Here's a question and answer from Nuss's introductory Michigan press conference:

With the perception that Nick Saban likes to control things, do you feel like at Michigan you’ll have some freedoms that maybe you didn’t have at Alabama?

“Coach and I talked about his philosophy. Obviously, I wouldn’t be here today if I wasn’t all in on what Coach Hoke and I discussed and what he wanted to do on offense, how we wanted to be and how we wanted to move forward. So part of coming here was us being on the same page with what we want to do offensively, and we both agree on the identity we want like I talked about before. As far as schematically how we’ll approach that, we’ll adapt with our personnel. That’s something he and I will work with the offensive staff on a day to day basis.”
Clearly, there was some disagreement and tension between Saban and Nuss on the offense.

Something for us all to remember, though: Nuss had not been a play caller prior to arriving at Alabama. While he was OC in title at Washington, Sark still called the plays.
 

RollTide1224

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No, I didn't.

In 2012, I'm counting Lacy and Yeldon as 1 and 2.

In 2013, Yeldon was number one and the three-headed back (Drake-Henry-Hart) as the other. Yes, the others tended to play less than Drake.
I see what you were saying now, I guess my confusion was calling it a triple headed monster when 2 of the people you are talking about hardly played.
 

CrimsonForce

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What's interesting is how against HUNH teams our offense seems to play subpar more often than not.
That was my biggest complaint as the two biggest culprits of your scenario was A&M 2012 and AU last year-and probably OU last year also but that game was just consolation so I don't mull over it to much. Most HUNH teams have a poor or at best average defense. That's what I was saying is that when we play one of those teams we should come in with the mindset that we need at least 35 points to win the game. And the fact that our offense should have been a stronger unit than our defense last year I was just disappointed in how we finished the year offensively. We also lost a key leader on defense, VS, so a little drop off was expected from me.
 

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