No more "kinder and gentler"? - RE: NCAA

Redwood Forrest

Hall of Fame
Sep 19, 2003
11,046
913
237
77
Boaz, AL USA
They need to put some teeth back into enforcement or abolish it.

Saying the enforcement's ability to develop information is “overmatched”, Delany told CBSSports.com his autonomy subcommittee will eventually look into a possible retooling of enforcement. “I think anybody who is honest about it, realizes there is not much action right now and we need to scrub [clean] it.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefoo...ncaa-enforcement-overmatched-need-to-scrub-it
 

B1GTide

TideFans Legend
Apr 13, 2012
45,585
47,151
187
Re: No more "kinder and gentler"?

Delany is an idiot. We don't need more NCAA enforcement - we need the NCAA to go away altogether.
 

Gr8hope

All-American
Nov 10, 2010
3,408
1
60
Re: No more "kinder and gentler"?

The NCAA sealed its fate of irrelevancy when it decided to allow Cam and Auburn to skate.

After a while when rules are selectively enforced no one respects them.
 

RT1941

1st Team
Jul 16, 2003
574
0
0
55
Montgomery, AL
Re: No more "kinder and gentler"?

The NCAA sealed its fate of irrelevancy when it decided to allow Cam and Auburn to skate.

After a while when rules are selectively enforced no one respects them.
Well, the Cam/Moo State/Auburn saga coupled with the Miami dibacle has neutered the NCAA to the point of complete impotence.
 

selmaborntidefan

TideFans Legend
Mar 31, 2000
36,432
29,736
287
54
Re: No more "kinder and gentler"?

The problem with the NCAA is not that we don't need oversight; what we need is CONSISTENT oversight. The problem is that the NCAA demonstrated a long-term habit of treating "giving a player a ride in the rain" violation as virtually the same as "paid the player thousands of dollars" - depending, of course, on which school was involved. Jerry Tarkanian's observation that the NCAA is mad at Kentucky and therefore gave Cleveland State extra probation is not that far removed from reality.

And I concur that the Cam Newton case sealed the doom of the NCAA, meaning perhaps something good came out of it. I'll never forget when that broke and I was thinking to myself how often I'd seen this same scenario play out and in every case there was a presumption of guilt by the offender.

Well, until Cam. Then we suddenly learned that a loophole nobody knew about existed, mostly because those folks didn't want an Oregon-TCU title game.
 

davefrat

Hall of Fame
Jun 4, 2002
5,225
4,026
282
Hopewell, VA
Re: No more "kinder and gentler"?

The problem with the NCAA is not that we don't need oversight; what we need is CONSISTENT oversight. The problem is that the NCAA demonstrated a long-term habit of treating "giving a player a ride in the rain" violation as virtually the same as "paid the player thousands of dollars" - depending, of course, on which school was involved. Jerry Tarkanian's observation that the NCAA is mad at Kentucky and therefore gave Cleveland State extra probation is not that far removed from reality.

And I concur that the Cam Newton case sealed the doom of the NCAA, meaning perhaps something good came out of it. I'll never forget when that broke and I was thinking to myself how often I'd seen this same scenario play out and in every case there was a presumption of guilt by the offender.

Well, until Cam. Then we suddenly learned that a loophole nobody knew about existed, mostly because those folks didn't want an Oregon-TCU title game.
the major football powers just need to tell the ncaa "nice knowing you" and be done with the organization.
 

TRU

All-SEC
Oct 3, 2000
1,467
192
187
Tampa, FL
Re: No more "kinder and gentler"?

The NCAA did not allow AU to skate because they were protecting the Oregon-TCU title game. The NCAA gets nothing from the BCS (unlike from March Madness) and so did not care about the MNC game. They were allowed to skate because AU called the NCAA's bluff and threatened to sue them for damages in Lee County if the NCAA moved against them. AU, to their credit, proved that the way to defeat the NCAA enforcement bully was to stand right up to them and punch them in the mouth. Other schools, such as Miami saw this and took the same tack. Without subpoena power the NCAA will almost never be able to build a case against a program that will stand up in court, unless the people involved in the program are really stupid and agree to cooperate with them. Credit Mr. Lowder's legal team and AU. They basically destroyed the NCAA's enforcement capabilities by showing that they were a paper tiger.
 

bamamc1

Hall of Fame
Oct 24, 2011
5,435
3,992
187
Haleyville, AL
Re: No more "kinder and gentler"?

The NCAA did not allow AU to skate because they were protecting the Oregon-TCU title game. The NCAA gets nothing from the BCS (unlike from March Madness) and so did not care about the MNC game. They were allowed to skate because AU called the NCAA's bluff and threatened to sue them for damages in Lee County if the NCAA moved against them. AU, to their credit, proved that the way to defeat the NCAA enforcement bully was to stand right up to them and punch them in the mouth. Other schools, such as Miami saw this and took the same tack. Without subpoena power the NCAA will almost never be able to build a case against a program that will stand up in court, unless the people involved in the program are really stupid and agree to cooperate with them. Credit Mr. Lowder's legal team and AU. They basically destroyed the NCAA's enforcement capabilities by showing that they were a paper tiger.
Stupid and agree to cooperate is the key phrase there. You are 100% correct.
 

JDCrimson

Hall of Fame
Feb 12, 2006
5,384
4,486
187
51
Re: No more "kinder and gentler"?

Stupid and agree to cooperate is the key phrase there. You are 100% correct.
Yeah, we walked right into that trap a few years ago and were made to look like a bunch of fools... Marsh parlayed that approach at the expense of UA into something much better for himself.
 

BamaJama17

Hall of Fame
Sep 17, 2006
16,365
8
47
34
Hoover, AL
Re: No more "kinder and gentler"?

The NCAA did not allow AU to skate because they were protecting the Oregon-TCU title game. The NCAA gets nothing from the BCS (unlike from March Madness) and so did not care about the MNC game. They were allowed to skate because AU called the NCAA's bluff and threatened to sue them for damages in Lee County if the NCAA moved against them. AU, to their credit, proved that the way to defeat the NCAA enforcement bully was to stand right up to them and punch them in the mouth. Other schools, such as Miami saw this and took the same tack. Without subpoena power the NCAA will almost never be able to build a case against a program that will stand up in court, unless the people involved in the program are really stupid and agree to cooperate with them. Credit Mr. Lowder's legal team and AU. They basically destroyed the NCAA's enforcement capabilities by showing that they were a paper tiger.
Kinda makes you wonder why Alabama didn't do the same thing back in 2000.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

CrimsonProf

Hall of Fame
Dec 30, 2006
5,716
69
67
Birmingham, Alabama
Re: No more "kinder and gentler"?

The NCAA did not allow AU to skate because they were protecting the Oregon-TCU title game. The NCAA gets nothing from the BCS (unlike from March Madness) and so did not care about the MNC game. They were allowed to skate because AU called the NCAA's bluff and threatened to sue them for damages in Lee County if the NCAA moved against them. AU, to their credit, proved that the way to defeat the NCAA enforcement bully was to stand right up to them and punch them in the mouth. Other schools, such as Miami saw this and took the same tack. Without subpoena power the NCAA will almost never be able to build a case against a program that will stand up in court, unless the people involved in the program are really stupid and agree to cooperate with them. Credit Mr. Lowder's legal team and AU. They basically destroyed the NCAA's enforcement capabilities by showing that they were a paper tiger.

To their credit? Forgive me, but are you out your mind?

There was no "NCAA bully" in this case - Auburn was guilty as homemade sin on Newton and about a dozen other players that Trooper Taylor bought. I don't like the NCAA because of the "level playing field" BS and because, as Selma noted, they were wildy inconsistent in their enforcement. But as it concerns Auburn, I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in hearing about how poor the little Davids down at Lightfoot, Franklin and White managed to slay the Goliath up in Indianapolis. That's now what happened and we all know it.
 

AgentAntiOrange

1st Team
Dec 30, 2009
888
0
0
Norman, OK
Re: No more "kinder and gentler"?

To their credit? Forgive me, but are you out your mind?

There was no "NCAA bully" in this case - Auburn was guilty as homemade sin on Newton and about a dozen other players that Trooper Taylor bought. I don't like the NCAA because of the "level playing field" BS and because, as Selma noted, they were wildy inconsistent in their enforcement. But as it concerns Auburn, I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in hearing about how poor the little Davids down at Lightfoot, Franklin and White managed to slay the Goliath up in Indianapolis. That's now what happened and we all know it.
I don't think the point was to argue whether or AU was right or wrong or guilty or not guilty. Once a charge has been levied there are 2 sides and both have the same goal: to win their case. AU took aggressive approach and instead of backing down out of fear from the NCAA, they called every bluff and let the NCAA know that this was going to just escalate as far as they could take it and the NCAA caved. AU won. That was a good legal strategy.
 

CrimsonProf

Hall of Fame
Dec 30, 2006
5,716
69
67
Birmingham, Alabama
Re: No more "kinder and gentler"?

I don't think the point was to argue whether or AU was right or wrong or guilty or not guilty. Once a charge has been levied there are 2 sides and both have the same goal: to win their case. AU took aggressive approach and instead of backing down out of fear from the NCAA, they called every bluff and let the NCAA know that this was going to just escalate as far as they could take it and the NCAA caved. AU won. That was a good legal strategy.

Be that as it may, far too many people have applauded Auburn. So they stood up for themselves. Great - John Gotti had an attorney, too.

So the NCAA has no teeth...I'm not sure that's a good thing. Cases like this with Newton...Miami...Lord knows what has happened at Ole Miss, etc...these should be punished, but they're not, and now it's open season.
 

RTR91

Super Moderator
Nov 23, 2007
39,407
6
0
Prattville
Re: No more "kinder and gentler"?

Be that as it may, far too many people have applauded Auburn. So they stood up for themselves. Great - John Gotti had an attorney, too.

So the NCAA has no teeth...I'm not sure that's a good thing. Cases like this with Newton...Miami...Lord knows what has happened at Ole Miss, etc...these should be punished, but they're not, and now it's open season.
Turn up your Gump level, bud. You're forgetting we got Coach Saban, and open season won't hurt us. We're Alabama and will still win. Ain't got nothing to fear!
 

TRU

All-SEC
Oct 3, 2000
1,467
192
187
Tampa, FL
Re: No more "kinder and gentler"?

I never meant to imply Auburn was in the right or not guilty. They were neither. But the NCAA was a bully. They did not follow their own rules, and their investigations and punishments were not meted out fairly or evenly. They singled out some programs while turning a blind eye to the misdeeds of their favorites. They deserved what they got. So before AU, we had overbearing and unjust enforcement of the rules. Now we have no enforcement to speak of. The bully has been defeated, but now chaos rules the playground.
 
Last edited:

selmaborntidefan

TideFans Legend
Mar 31, 2000
36,432
29,736
287
54
Re: No more "kinder and gentler"?

Some of you have apparently forgotten that we tried (in essence) the same thing in 1995 and got drilled with a phony LOIC sanction.

Auburn may have ultimately succeeded as have others but we rammed the gate first. Then we decided the reason we got popped so hard was our aggressiveness, pulled our punches - and still got hammered the second time.
 

IH8Orange

Hall of Fame
Aug 14, 2000
7,017
31
0
Trussville, AL, USA
Re: No more "kinder and gentler"?

As has been stated, the NCAA has no subpoena power and relies on the cooperation of institutions to enforce their rules. Some institutions cooperate and the NCAA doesn't seem to cut them any slack for doing the right thing. Other institutions just stonewall the NCAA and the NCAA is forced to find collaboration that is outside of the institution or drop their case. Thus, there is really no motivation to cooperate with the NCAA if an institution feels that they can sew up all the loose ends so that the NCAA can prove nothing against them.

From what I've heard, Alabama cooperated fully with the NCAA during the Means investigation and while the NCAA admitted that the actions of Logan Young as a "rogue" booster were outside the control of the institution and that there was really nothing that Alabama could have done to prevent the violations, the NCAA still hit us hard. Alabama was deemed a repeat offender, but cooperated fully as noted by the NCAA in their sanctions report, and the NCAA "agreed with and adopted the actions taken by the university". The NCAA responded with a five-year probation, two-year post-season ban, and loss of 21 football scholarships.

The NCAA lauds the cooperation of the university officials:

In this case, by contrast, university officials cooperated fully with the enforcement staff, often at great personal criticism, in a diligent effort to develop complete information regarding the violations. Had this candor and cooperation been lacking, the death penalty (as well as substantial penalties in addition to those imposed in this case) would have been imposed.
Although the committee declined to impose penalties pursuant to Bylaw 19.6.2.3.2-(a), the committee concluded that, for the reasons set forth in detail at the outset of this report, additional penalties clearly were warranted.
Here are the "reasons set forth in detail at the outset of this report":

Of foremost concern to the committee is that this is the second time in two years that the university has appeared before the committee as a repeat major violator under NCAA Bylaw 19.6.2.3, following a major infractions case in football in 1995 (1999 men's basketball and 2001 football). In each case, the violations involved the provision or offer of significant benefits to enrolled or prospective student-athletes or their high-school coaches by university coaches or representatives of the university's athletic interests. Moreover, the committee was troubled by the fact that the violations set forth in Finding II-A occurred shortly after the release of its 1995 major infractions case, which also involved the football program and which included violations committed by representatives of the institution’s athletics interests. The committee also noted that the 1999 case, which involved the men’s basketball program, contrasted sharply with the current case, which involved the football program. In the 1999 case, representatives of the institution’s athletics interests “blew the whistle” on an assistant basketball coach who was attempting to solicit $5,000 from boosters to provide to a high school basketball coach. The boosters’ actions resulted in the university avoiding any significant penalties. In the current case, athletics representatives actively engaged in egregious violations of recruiting and extra benefit legislation associated with the football program, yet there was no indication that these activities would have been reported in the same manner as the 1999 men’s basketball violation.
So, if the boosters hadn't cooperated with the NCAA in 1999, the repeat offender status would not have been used to enforce harsher penalties on Bama in the 2001 case. Two cases where university officials and even boosters cooperated with the NCAA in infractions cases (one that would have likely never been known if not for such cooperation), the cooperation is noted and praised by the NCAA, and then the NCAA lowers the boom anyway.

In the case of USC, the sanctions report indicates that the institution was deemed a repeat offender, did sufficiently cooperate with the investigation (no glowing praise, however), and the self-imposed penalties and corrective actions were inadequate. The NCAA found 31 major violations in football, basketball, and women's tennis and also hit USC with the Lack of Institutional Control (LOIC) penalty as well. USC got four years probation, no postseason competition for football for two years and basketball for one year, vacation of all wins in which Reggie Bush played from December 2004 to January 2005, vacation of all wins in which Jerrod Mayo played during the 2007-08 regular season, vacation of all wins in which the female tennis player played between November 2006 and May 2009, loss of 30 football scholarships over 3 years, and other various recruiting limits.

Here is what the NCAA said about the cooperation of USC:

The committee determined that the cooperation exhibited by the institution met its obligation under Bylaws 19.01.3.3 and 32.1.4.
I suppose the difference between commendable cooperation and cooperation that "met its obligation" is the inclusion of these terms, describing USC's response, in most of the NCAA committee findings:

  • "denial"
  • "challenged"
  • "disputed"
  • "disagreement"
  • "substantial disagreement"
  • "contested"
  • "assistant football coach ... knowingly provided ... false and/or misleading information"


In the NCAA committee findings against Alabama, there are only a couple of disagreements and one assertion that a violation occurred outside the statute of limitations. Most of the remaining violations state that the institution and the committee either agreed or partially agreed. It seems that Bama just thought that cooperation was their best chance or perhaps they were just being honest... a trait of character that the NCAA apparently sees as an avenue for exploitation.

So, in reality there wasn't much difference between the penalties handed down to Alabama and USC (difference of 9 football scholarships lost, one additional year of probation for Alabama), but one institution had far fewer major violations and cooperated in a manner that was applauded by the NCAA and the other had more major violations and only gave obligatory cooperation. What's worse is that the rationale for penalizing Alabama so heavily was because Alabama's own enforcement staff performed an honorable action and self-reported a violation that probably could have been swept under the rug and never found by the NCAA and probably would have been swept under the rug by many other programs.

In the USC sanctions report, the NCAA references its bylaws 19.01.3 (Responsibility to Cooperate) and 32.1.4 (Cooperative Principle), both of which basically state that each institution has a responsibility to cooperate with NCAA investigations and the second bylaw states that this is an "affirmative obligation" which, along with some other language within the report, seems to infer that the NCAA will modify penalties according to the level of cooperation that they receive from an institution during an investigation. The relief offered Alabama definitely does not seem commensurate with the level of cooperation that the NCAA describes as having received from the institution.

It seems that cooperation is not rewarded by the NCAA. Several programs lately have taken the opposite course of action and that has produced more positive results. The NCAA ruling about Cam Newton was a crock. The NCAA sanctions report about Alabama states that Albert Means was not aware that his mother and coaches took money from boosters and he was allowed to transfer to another school and play, so it's not the eligibility of Cam Newton that is really the issue. The issue is that when a booster paid people associated with Albert Means, even without his knowledge, it was considered an infraction. Cam Newton's father admitted that he accepted money, so even without Cam Newton's knowledge, shouldn't that have still been an infraction? Why did the NCAA not pursue this further? They have an admission that a relative of a student athlete received money for his athletic services, yet they just stated that without Cam Newton's knowledge, it wasn't an infraction? Those two rulings are contradictory and just more justification for getting rid of the NCAA which seems to mete justice without regard for their bylaws or any semblance of fairness.
 

CHATTBRIT

Hall of Fame
Dec 3, 2003
5,768
504
237
Falling Water, TN
Re: No more "kinder and gentler"?

I know most of you are focused on the Barn/Newton saga, but what most people don't realize is that Ohio State got away with basically a tap (not a slap) on the wrist following Tattoo-gate. If that was the only issue OK. However, Jim Tressel as head coach knowing and wilfully signed a statement that all was well in Conker-land despite the fact be was away of the players' tattoo transgressions. That was, without doubt, evidence of institutional failure. They took themselves out of 2 bowl games but didn't lose scholarships for this serious offense and should have been just as severely dealt with as USC west or Penn State.
 

kayakerjess

All-American
Sep 9, 2005
2,011
2
62
48
Colorado
Re: No more "kinder and gentler"?

It seems that cooperation is not rewarded by the NCAA. Several programs lately have taken the opposite course of action and that has produced more positive results. The NCAA ruling about Cam Newton was a crock. The NCAA sanctions report about Alabama states that Albert Means was not aware that his mother and coaches took money from boosters and he was allowed to transfer to another school and play, so it's not the eligibility of Cam Newton that is really the issue. The issue is that when a booster paid people associated with Albert Means, even without his knowledge, it was considered an infraction. Cam Newton's father admitted that he accepted money, so even without Cam Newton's knowledge, shouldn't that have still been an infraction? Why did the NCAA not pursue this further? They have an admission that a relative of a student athlete received money for his athletic services, yet they just stated that without Cam Newton's knowledge, it wasn't an infraction? Those two rulings are contradictory and just more justification for getting rid of the NCAA which seems to mete justice without regard for their bylaws or any semblance of fairness.
Did he actually admit to accepting money? I know he admitted to soliciting money from MSU, which by the SEC bylaws immediately made him ineligible at MSU and should have made him ineligible at ALL SEC schools from that point forward. But, I didn't realize that Cecil actually admitted that he received money. I thought his stance was that he solicited $180k from MSU, but then had a change of heart and let sCam go to AU for no fee.
 

New Posts

Latest threads

TideFans.shop - NEW Stuff!

TideFans.shop - Get YOUR Bama Gear HERE!”></a>
<br />

<!--/ END TideFans.shop & item link \-->
<p style= Purchases made through our TideFans.shop and Amazon.com links may result in a commission being paid to TideFans.