Interesting read re: minimum wage, the middle class and trick-down economics

Gr8hope

All-American
Nov 10, 2010
3,408
1
60
"The pitchforks" will not be coming for anyone until all the entitlements run out and the banks close. Then they should be directed towards the central bankers and politicians, not businessmen or those who have earned their wealth. Earning wealth and running a business does not take opportunity from anyone. The system has been corrupted by central control and bailouts.
 

mittman

All-American
Jun 19, 2009
3,942
0
0
I understand where he is coming from. All I know is that every time they even talk about it my fixed income retired parents get really nervous about the induced inflation. They seem to feel the effects pretty quick.
 

Tide1986

Suspended
Nov 22, 2008
15,670
2
0
Birmingham, AL
The article is rather hyperbolic. Here are a few questions for consideration:

1. Which came first: Seattle's astronomical minimum wage or Seattle's economic growth?

2. To what extent does government intervention in the marketplace take money out of workers' pockets?

3. Do we really want to live in a society in which government increasingly compels private actions (beyond protecting fundamental rights)?

4. Assuming the Henry Ford standard is the appropriate one for determining wage sufficiency, do we really believe that Walmart employees can't afford to shop at Walmart?

5. Is the article on job growth since 2000 instructive (reference the associated thread)? Who is actually filling low-skilled, low-paying jobs? Are these jobs better or worse than the alternative?
 
Last edited:

Tide1986

Suspended
Nov 22, 2008
15,670
2
0
Birmingham, AL
Here's an interesting article from The Guardian referencing Piketty no less:

Seattle Misreads Thomas Piketty as Its Minimum Wage Mascot

The best way to increase wages and reduce wage inequalities in the long run is to invest in education and skills. Over the long run, minimum wages and wage schedules cannot multiply wages by factors of five or 10: to achieve that level of progress, education and technology are the decisive forces.
 
Last edited:

4Q Basket Case

FB|BB Moderator
Staff member
Nov 8, 2004
9,615
13,011
237
Tuscaloosa
I'll be shocked if the current rush to raise the minimum wage has the desired effect.

If you have to pay barista staff the equivalent of $30k a year ($15 an hour x 2,000 hours in a work year), automated machines and self-service look a lot more attractive. Plus, they don't call in sick, show up hung over, play grabass with each other, or ignore paying customers.

You raise the price of anything, and people will consume less of it. People who favor central control advocate this all the time...want to reduce gasoline consumption? Raise the tax on it. Tobacco? The same thing. Electricity? Increase the costs of production by legislating all sorts of environmental protections, and watch the power companies pass the cost along.

Why they think they can force an increase in the price of labor (the minimum wage), and have no effect on its consumption (employment) is beyond me.
 

selmaborntidefan

TideFans Legend
Mar 31, 2000
36,432
29,736
287
54
I'll admit not being an economist exactly (and then again, I've yet to see any economist with a perfect track record of telling what happens BEFORE it happens) and my knowledge is probably about what CA's is.

But my problem is that if you're going to say, "If they have more money they'll spend it" (which is true in the abstract), why stop with raising it to $15 an hour? Why not 20? Why not 25? Why don't we just use the old Demogrant plan but instead of giving everyone a thousand bucks, give everyone one hundred thousand bucks?

It's because in the larger picture that won't work. I'm not going to sit here and say it won't work for a brief period of time so that guys can write articles like this. He's right in the basic point of getting less at one stage to get more at another from a larger pool of people but it won't last.

And here's the thing: how many people actually work minimum wage jobs as their SOLE SOURCE OF INCOME? Seriously? I'm sure it's higher than it used to be simply because of the recession. But these are ENTRY LEVEL jobs. There's a lot of feeling of entitlement going on out there. Take your knocks in life like everyone else.
 

NationalTitles18

TideFans Legend
May 25, 2003
29,854
35,157
362
Mountainous Northern California
Interesting article for sure and I actually agree that businesses would do better to follow the Henry Ford model and pay better wages. Employees who are paid more tend to feel more valued, they tend to care more about their work, and they tend to hold both themselves and their coworkers to a higher standard. That is merely my own observation, though I believe there is plenty of evidence to back that up.
Paying a higher wage helps to attract and retain a higher quality of worker. It only makes sense that someone with ambition will seek out more compensation when it is available. That means if they are not paid well they will leave their present employer and will often even before that take the slight of being undervalued personally. That usually leads to resentment, which often leads to a poor attitude, which often leads to less production.
It is also true that a thriving middle class is a huge part of the engine that drive our economy. When people have less disposable income then they have less money to dispose. That means less consumer spending, which ultimately means a shrinking economy. Increasing disposable income leads to higher disposable income and a growing economy.
I do think that there is a false choice presented between who really drives the economy and creates jobs. Instead of a choice between the rich and the middle class I believe there is a symbiotic relationship much like the natural flora and cellular mechanisms in our guts. When there is a good natural balance then all prosper and the engine runs smoothly. Upset the balance, allowing the bad actors to propagate out of control, or don't provide the right balance of inputs and you have a sick engine that runs out of control or gums up the works. Sooner or later balance has to be restored or the problems grow more and more dire.
What we are seeing with strikes and social justice movements and the like is simply a natural reaction to a lack of balance. His prediction of pitchforks is not far off the mark if things continue on their present path.
Government policies have by and large hurt the middle class. Once a person moves into middle class they lose some benefits they earlier had as the working poor. This ranges from food stamps to tax breaks to pell grants and so on. The amount are not inconsequential, especially when combined. That is not an argument for or against doing away with help for the poor or expanding that help to the middle class, it is just a statement of fact.
What this means is that the government is squeezing the middle class at both ends, both reducing the help it gives at one end and taking more in taxes at the other end. These combined greatly reduce disposable income.
So are businesses that pay low wages part of the problem? I believe so.
But is government policy an even bigger problem? Perhaps so. That can be no doubt in my mind that the problem of government policy has at least an equal, if not greater impact on middle class disposable income and, therefore, consumer spending.
He also fails to admit the inflationary pressures his idea would place not only on consumer prices, but also on the wages of those who currently make more than minimum wage. Those pressures would lead to still higher pay for some and even more price pressure which would erode some of the newly found buying power of the lowest wage earners.
I do find it interesting also that Amazon, the company which made the author much of his money, does not yet follow his advice on pay. I wonder if he has offered a percentage of his own dividends and other earnings to help bring Amazon into compliance with his wishes. Consider this the Warren Buffet counter-argument: If you don't put your own money where your mouth is then how strong is your conviction? Henry Ford had no trouble putting his own money behind his conviction, even when his wages were far higher than the prevailing wage at the time. He was willing to take the risk. He did not outsource the risk to everyone else. Henry Ford was not a feckless hypocrite.
 

CoachJeff

Suspended
Jan 21, 2014
3,596
3,654
187
Shelby County Alabama
Henry Ford was not very good at understanding economics. He thought raising wages during the Depression was a good thing and supported Hoover in '32.

Entrepreneurs are often the last people to look to for economic insight.
 

Tide1986

Suspended
Nov 22, 2008
15,670
2
0
Birmingham, AL
Here's another piece by Megan McArdle:

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2016-01-26/beware-wal-mart-s-raises-are-not-a-victory

...the best that labor activists can get from Wal-Mart and McDonalds is something like what Wal-Mart just offered voluntarily. Far short of the “living wage” demanded by the activists. Any further raise in wages will most likely come at the expense of the lower-income folks who patronize these establishments, in the form of higher prices, or from the workers themselves, in the form of unemployment and underemployment when shoppers decline to pay the new, higher prices and the company has to cut back.
Labor activists are getting what they say they want: higher wages at Wal-Mart. But if the company starts shedding stores and jobs, that may not be best for workers, or a great advertisement for their movement.
 

RollSaban

New Member
Oct 15, 2015
24
0
0
The thing is the rich don't need to buy as much as the poor. If the money went to the poor, there would be more consuming. 1 person's spending can't equal 1,000 people's spending. Therefore makes more sense to make sure money is somewhat evenly distributed.
 

mittman

All-American
Jun 19, 2009
3,942
0
0
The thing is the rich don't need to buy as much as the poor. If the money went to the poor, there would be more consuming. 1 person's spending can't equal 1,000 people's spending. Therefore makes more sense to make sure money is somewhat evenly distributed.
Wow.

Let's try to take this one at a time:

The thing is the rich don't need to buy as much as the poor.
Who says? The rich have to buy everything they use including necessities like their food, housing and clothing.

If the money went to the poor, there would be more consuming. 1 person's spending can't equal 1,000 people's spending.
One dollar is one dollar. Who spends it makes little difference in an economy with one excepton. some spending causes more jobs to be created. Usually that is the rich either paying someone to do something for them, or taking a risk in an investment. There is an old saying that holds true for me, "I never got a job from a poor guy."

Therefore makes more sense to make sure money is somewhat evenly distributed.
You should look up the meaning of the term zero sum game. Logical inferences like this just do not pan in reality.

So back to the old thread you popped back up. Minimum wages are a noble effort in an attempt to keep the system from taking advantage of the work force, but they are NOT zero sum. You raise minimum wages, the cost of doing business goes up. Those trying to make money in that business don't want to take that hit. They look for ways to be more efficient or you get increased prices. There is going to be a threshold where it costs so much to hire a guy to flip a burger that the company finds that an automatic burger flipper is cheaper.
 
Last edited:

Gr8hope

All-American
Nov 10, 2010
3,408
1
60
This is America, land of the free. We abolished slavery in the 1800's. Those who want to live under any form of communism should look to live elsewhere. The money you earn belongs to you, not the government. Giving it to the needy is a personal choice and taken by force, even by the government, is theft.
 

Tide1986

Suspended
Nov 22, 2008
15,670
2
0
Birmingham, AL
http://thefederalist.com/2016/03/29...sed-its-minimum-wage-i-still-cant-find-a-job/

In December, I found myself needing a break from college, for a variety of reasons. So at the close of last semester, I decided (rather impulsively, as young people are wont to do) to take my spring semester off from the College of William and Mary and move out west to try my luck in Seattle, a place I had only visited once before.

My parents, although grateful to have one less semester of ridiculously high out-of-state tuition to pay for, let me know that I’d need to fund the venture myself. I had secured an internship in the Seattle area, but it was unpaid, so I knew I’d have to find additional part-time work very quickly.

Having a combined two years of serving experience and close to five years of total experience in the customer and food services industries (which is literally as much as you can ask for from a 20-year-old college student), I assumed I’d be able to find a restaurant gig in no time. So, after reassuring my parents all would be well in the financial department, I boarded a plane in Philly a few weeks later and made the move.

Yet seven weeks and more than 70 job applications later, I still have yet to land a part-time, minimum wage job. I’ve spent the majority of the last two months stalking online job sites and entire days traversing the various neighborhoods of Seattle, filling out applications and inquiring about job opportunities at any restaurant, coffee shop, retail store, or other service-oriented establishment I can find.
 

tidegrandpa

All-American
The article is rather hyperbolic. Here are a few questions for consideration:

1. Which came first: Seattle's astronomical minimum wage or Seattle's economic growth?

2. To what extent does government intervention in the marketplace take money out of workers' pockets?

3. Do we really want to live in a society in which government increasingly compels private actions (beyond protecting fundamental rights)?

4. Assuming the Henry Ford standard is the appropriate one for determining wage sufficiency, do we really believe that Walmart employees can't afford to shop at Walmart?

5. Is the article on job growth since 2000 instructive (reference the associated thread)? Who is actually filling low-skilled, low-paying jobs? Are these jobs better or worse than the alternative?
We have two bins for our garbage, one to 'recycle stuff', we can't buy incandescent bulbs, watered down weed and insect killer, can't buy a gas can that's simple, brother it's here and gettin' worse.
 

2003TIDE

Hall of Fame
Jul 10, 2007
8,599
4,893
187
ATL
The $15 minimum wage isn't going to go very well. Just look at what happened to Puerto Rico.
 

CrimsonNagus

Hall of Fame
Jun 6, 2007
8,557
6,356
212
45
Montgomery, Alabama, United States
What about everyone making more than minimum wage? We will not get a bump in wages to offset the rise in cost of goods that will follow a minimum wage hike. Essentially, we will feel like are wages were cut, struggling even more to make ends meet. Meanwhile the minimum wagers will still complain that they can't afford anything because a Big Mac now cost $12.50, a gallon of milk is $9 and gasoline is $7.50/gallon.
 

Bamabuzzard

FB Moderator
Staff member
Aug 15, 2004
30,636
18,608
237
48
Where ever there's BBQ, Bourbon & Football
What about everyone making more than minimum wage? We will not get a bump in wages to offset the rise in cost of goods that will follow a minimum wage hike. Essentially, we will feel like are wages were cut, struggling even more to make ends meet. Meanwhile the minimum wagers will still complain that they can't afford anything because a Big Mac now cost $12.50, a gallon of milk is $9 and gasoline is $7.50/gallon.
I think the article above demonstrates what a lot of people predicted would happen. The $7.25/hr worker was now going to have to compete with a more qualified worker at $15/hr and it's obvious who was going to be hired and who was going to be left out in the cold.
 

New Posts

TideFans.shop - NEW Stuff!

TideFans.shop - Get YOUR Bama Gear HERE!”></a>
<br />

<!--/ END TideFans.shop & item link \-->
<p style= Purchases made through our TideFans.shop and Amazon.com links may result in a commission being paid to TideFans.