Beggars on the corner

bamachile · Jul 22, 2014

If you've never had a long, serious conversation with a homeless or formerly homeless person, I highly recommend it. Contrary to common notions, most homeless people choose the lifestyle voluntarily and aren't interested in abandoning it; it is an established subculture within America, with it's own lingo, rules, and dangers. The old songs about hobos (e.g. - King of the Road, Big Rock Candy Mountain, Waiting for a Train) were probably too romantic, but they were a half-decent, if lighthearted, view of the addictions and hazards of the lifestyle.

Interesting thread.

TIDE-HSV · Jul 22, 2014

bamachile said:
If you've never had a long, serious conversation with a homeless or formerly homeless person, I highly recommend it. Contrary to common notions, most homeless people choose the lifestyle voluntarily and aren't interested in abandoning it; it is an established subculture within America, with it's own lingo, rules, and dangers. The old songs about hobos (e.g. - King of the Road, Big Rock Candy Mountain, Waiting for a Train) were probably too romantic, but they were a half-decent, if lighthearted, view of the addictions and hazards of the lifestyle.

Interesting thread.

The misguided (IMO) court decisions "liberating" mentally ill people from long term care are what caused the explosion of homeless. A lot of them are like you describe - just mavericks. However, a great number of then are mentally ill and can realistically only live in an institution or on the streets. The hobos during the Great Depression were to a large degree a different breed of cat altogether. The large majority of them couldn't get a job because there weren't any jobs to be had. A lot of the addiction problem out there now are mentally ill treating themselves with alcohol or whatever else can be found...

bamachile · Jul 22, 2014

TIDE-HSV said:
The misguided (IMO) court decisions "liberating" mentally ill people from long term care are what caused the explosion of homeless. A lot of them are like you describe - just mavericks. However, a great number of then are mentally ill and can realistically only live in an institution or on the streets. The hobos during the Great Depression were to a large degree a different breed of cat altogether. The large majority of them couldn't get a job because there weren't any jobs to be had. A lot of the addiction problem out there now are mentally ill treating themselves with alcohol or whatever else can be found...

Agree with the mentally ill aspect; that's another segment of society I'm getting more exposure with than I anticipated through the ministry and one that - as you mentioned - has been kicked out to die by the courts. You are also spot on concerning the alcohol and drug addictions of this segment. This is also the segment most often used as victims by the professional homeless. It is a seldom stated but brutal fact that the vagrant lifestyle is one well acquainted with drug use, prostitution, robbery, and violence.

The professional homeless, those voluntarily undomesticated citizens of the world, are almost completely unrepresented by modern pop culture. The movies and songs which present them as involuntary victims of society's evils are generally hack jobs which use homelessness as some sort of facade behind which they construct a political straw man to argue their cause du jour. The old hobo lifestyle wasn't very romantic, either, despite the Nashville and Hollywood treatments. As it is politically incorrect to present the professional homeless as anything other than a victim of society, it has become nigh impossible for journalists to present vagrant subcultures honestly - you really see this when the Roma surface in the news, for example. This thread is more honest (so far) than any article I remember reading in a newspaper. I hope it doesn't devolve into screaming rants, but if it does I'll probably read it anyway. :smile:

TIDE-HSV · Jul 22, 2014

I believe, on a totally unscientific basis, that the homeless population is about divided down the middle between the "pros" and the real victims. The Roma are an interesting case. I've read several books about them. They too are a completely independent society which could join the mainstream any time they wished. They just prefer their own rules and company...

92tide · Jul 22, 2014

bamachile said:
If you've never had a long, serious conversation with a homeless or formerly homeless person, I highly recommend it. Contrary to common notions, most homeless people choose the lifestyle voluntarily and aren't interested in abandoning it; it is an established subculture within America, with it's own lingo, rules, and dangers. The old songs about hobos (e.g. - King of the Road, Big Rock Candy Mountain, Waiting for a Train) were probably too romantic, but they were a half-decent, if lighthearted, view of the addictions and hazards of the lifestyle.

Interesting thread.

some, no doubt. Most? i ain't buying it.

bamachile · Jul 22, 2014

92tide said:
some, no doubt. Most? i ain't buying it.

Personal observation, probably skewered and colored by anecdotes, but accurate to my memory. I don't have statistics, but it's certainly not a small percentage. To what extent the term voluntary is applicable can be debated as mental health and especially psychological disorders are often in play, but there's no doubt that many refuse opportunities to reestablish themselves in society. I know you work with different social workers, 92, so you may get some insight from them that I lack. I would think that they could affirm the frustration of being unable to help those who choose not to change, though.

You will find that the PC line is "there are no voluntarily homeless people", repeated on practically every website dedicated to homelessness. That is based upon the definition of voluntary, which is where the debate really lies. There's no easy out on this one. It's undeniable that "I choose to be homeless" is not always a forthcoming statement, but I think it's also oversimplification to deny it in totality, and not helpful.

Anyhow, sorry about rambling so much in this thread. This is one of those subjects that I deal with from time to time, though, so it interests me. I will state that while I have had no success in providing long term help to the homeless I have met, I have occasionally enjoyed their company and have been honored to provide a few people I didn't understand a meal or (back when I smoked) a cigarette. I hope I did the right thing.

92tide · Jul 22, 2014

bamachile said:
Personal observation, probably skewered and colored by anecdotes, but accurate to my memory. I don't have statistics, but it's certainly not a small percentage. To what extent the term voluntary is applicable can be debated as mental health and especially psychological disorders are often in play, but there's no doubt that many refuse opportunities to reestablish themselves in society. I know you work with different social workers, 92, so you may get some insight from them that I lack. I would think that they could affirm the frustration of being unable to help those who choose not to change, though.

You will find that the PC line is "there are no voluntarily homeless people", repeated on practically every website dedicated to homelessness. That is based upon the definition of voluntary, which is where the debate really lies. There's no easy out on this one. It's undeniable that "I choose to be homeless" is not always a forthcoming statement, but I think it's also oversimplification to deny it in totality, and not helpful.

Anyhow, sorry about rambling so much in this thread. This is one of those subjects that I deal with from time to time, though, so it interests me. I will state that while I have had no success in providing long term help to the homeless I have met, I have occasionally enjoyed their company and have been honored to provide a few people I didn't understand a meal or (back when I smoked) a cigarette. I hope I did the right thing.

i don't actually work with any social workers, but i have talked with and we support (both individually and through our church) the gentleman who runs crossroads ministries in atlanta. he says the biggest hurdle in talking to folks about helping with homelessness is that we all approach it with a mindset that we can just give someone a home, money or a job (e.g. help them re-establish themselves) and it will fix everything. he says that it can be a months- and sometimes years-long process to help a person out of homelessness if you can even help them, and they help thousands of folks each year. most of the folks they deal with have very serious issues and its not function of "want-to" if that makes sense.

bamachile · Jul 22, 2014

92tide said:
i don't actually work with any social workers, but i have talked with and we support (both individually and through our church) the gentleman who runs crossroads ministries in atlanta. he says the biggest hurdle in talking to folks about helping with homelessness is that we all approach it with a mindset that we can just give someone a home, money or a job (e.g. help them re-establish themselves) and it will fix everything. he says that it can be a months- and sometimes years-long process to help a person out of homelessness if you can even help them, and they help thousands of folks each year. most of the folks they deal with have very serious issues and its not function of "want-to" if that makes sense.

I think we are pretty much agreed on the root issues. The will of an individual is an enigmatic thing. Mental health/substance abuse issues just make complicated knots Gordian. Unfortunately, no Alexander has appeared yet on this one.

I have enjoyed passing time with a few undomesticated gentlemen, though, and will gladly do so again when the opportunity arises. If I can't help them on a permanent basis, I can at least listen to them and enjoy their company for a few minutes. Like I said, I recommend it. You'll hear some perspectives that you'll never hear anywhere else.

Tide1986 · Jul 22, 2014

The on and off ramps at the intersection of U.S. Highway 280 and Shades Creek Parkway in Birmingham routinely have one or more homeless individuals panhandling when people are headed home from work in the afternoons. On a rare occasion, I'll see someone roll down his window and pass out some money or a bottle of water or some food. By the way, this area is generally the border between Homewood and Mountain Brook.

bamachile · Jul 22, 2014

Just a quick anecdote. Here in Lake Charles, there were two homeless fellows who became friends of some friends of mine (I failed to get a chance to meet them). Their nicknames were Genius and Einstein. Genius was friendly, but not very bright. Einstein was flat out devious. Apparently, Einstein was the original owner of a particular underpass (yes, there are rules in the vagrant society), so he charged Genius rent for the privilege of panhandling in that area. Sheer genius, that Einstein.

Bamabuzzard · Jul 22, 2014

selmaborntidefan said:
I come from the Christian school of compassion (or some other such nonsense, which doesn't mean you "have" to be Christian to be compassionate) so I try to assess the situation. And to be honest with you there are VERY FEW instances I've come across where the person actually needed anything, it was just easier than finding a job.

When it comes to "helping the needy/poor", this is the difference in the government and churches, discernment. Our church isn't in the best part of town but we reach out to the community around us and help. However, so we won't get "taken" we have a system of discernment in place that helps us get a better indication whether someone really needs help or they're just looking to manipulate. It works pretty good. Is it perfect? No, but it is supremely better than anything the government currently does.

TIDE-HSV · Jul 22, 2014

Bamabuzzard said:
When it comes to "helping the needy/poor", this is the difference in the government and churches, discernment. Our church isn't in the best part of town but we reach out to the community around us and help. However, so we won't get "taken" we have a system of discernment in place that helps us get a better indication whether someone really needs help or they're just looking to manipulate. It works pretty good. Is it perfect? No, but it is supremely better than anything the government currently does.

This function used to be totally a church (and later back, temple or synagogue) duty. I don't remember the Roman Legions passing out welfare. This is one reason the historic tithe is so high...

twofbyc · Jul 22, 2014

They weren't "homeless", per se, as they were coming back to Alabama (Birmingham, I think I remember from the tag) to live with her mother (couple, two kids). They were sitting on the back of their station wagon on the side of the I-10, so I stopped. They were almost out of gas (I verified) and had no money. It was in Mississippi, so I had them follow me to the next exit and I filled their wagon up and let them by food on my Chevron card (back then I didn't have a visa or mastercard, wish I didn't now). I don't know if they had enough gas to make it to Birmingham or not, but I felt for the kids. They weren't but one step away from living under an interstate somewhere. The guy and his wife both thanked me profusely and wanted my address so they could pay me back, but I just told them to pass it on and do something to help someone else out sometime.

Bamabuzzard · Jul 22, 2014

I saw the craziest thing the other day while pumping gas at a Shell station. This lady was pumping gas on the other side of the pump I was at. There was a white work pick up at the other set of pumps right beside the this lady. This middle aged lady gets out of the truck, walks over to the lady on the other side of my pump and starts begging for money. I over heard the lady pumping gas ask "Aren't you in that white pick up ma'am?". The lady responded "Yes, but I still need money." The lady asked her for what. I didn't hear (clearly) the lady's response. But then the man that was driving the pick up comes out with a brown bag, tells her to "come on" and then pulls out a pack of cigarettes, drink and what looked to be some nabs and they got in and drove off. Now from appearances alone it looked like the were together. Not him just giving her a ride or something. But people begging at gas stations are getting common around here.

TIDE-HSV · Jul 22, 2014

Bamabuzzard said:
I saw the craziest thing the other day while pumping gas at a Shell station. This lady was pumping gas on the other side of the pump I was at. There was a white work pick up at the other set of pumps right beside the this lady. This middle aged lady gets out of the truck, walks over to the lady on the other side of my pump and starts begging for money. I over heard the lady pumping gas ask "Aren't you in that white pick up ma'am?". The lady responded "Yes, but I still need money." The lady asked her for what. I didn't hear (clearly) the lady's response. But then the man that was driving the pick up comes out with a brown bag, tells her to "come on" and then pulls out a pack of cigarettes, drink and what looked to be some nabs and they got in and drove off. Now from appearances alone it looked like the were together. Not him just giving her a ride or something. But people begging at gas stations are getting common around here.

Wow! Haven't seen that one yet. However, I normally gas up at Costco (like today), where you have to be a member...

Bamabuzzard · Jul 22, 2014

TIDE-HSV said:
Wow! Haven't seen that one yet. However, I normally gas up at Costco (like today), where you have to be a member...

It's getting to the point where (especially at Shell/7-Elevens) the manager of the store will come out and intervene telling the beggars "We don't allow this on our property you're going to have to go elsewhere." I hate it because if someone is in real need I WANT TO HELP them. But I also know (from being burnt enough) that people will also lie and take advantage of you left and right as well.

bamachile · Jul 22, 2014

Bamabuzzard said:
It's getting to the point where (especially at Shell/7-Elevens) the manager of the store will come out and intervene telling the beggars "We don't allow this on our property you're going to have to go elsewhere." I hate it because if someone is in real need I WANT TO HELP them. But I also know (from being burnt enough) that people will also lie and take advantage of you left and right as well.

There's a Murphy's (Wal-Mart) station here that got bad enough that the managers had to get very assertive. Some people just can't get the concept of over-fishing a hole, I guess.

Crimson1967 · Jul 22, 2014

I used to live off Green Springs Highway in Homewood and used to eat at the Subway there a lot. There was this deaf guy who'd come in and would walk up to the table you were eating at and would put a card on the table that had some Bible verse on it. Then he'd stand there and wait for you to give him money. When you didn't, he'd get mad and take the card back and stomp off.

TIDE-HSV · Jul 22, 2014

Crimson1967 said:
I used to live off Green Springs Highway in Homewood and used to eat at the Subway there a lot. There was this deaf guy who'd come in and would walk up to the table you were eating at and would put a card on the table that had some Bible verse on it. Then he'd stand there and wait for you to give him money. When you didn't, he'd get mad and take the card back and stomp off.

I happen to know ASL. I always sign back "How are you?" I can think of only one incident where the individual really was deaf/mute and knew what I was saying. I gave him $5. Probably shouldn't have, but I did...

Displaced Bama Fan · Jul 22, 2014

TIDE-HSV said:
This function used to be totally a church (and later back, temple or synagogue) duty. I don't remember the Roman Legions passing out welfare. This is one reason the historic tithe is so high...

Most churches have lost their focus much like our government, but I digress.

Beggars on the corner

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