World War II Daily: DDay to VEDay

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willie52

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Re: Normandy daily - 1944

CA,

Just wanted to say thanks for these posts, interesting read. My dad was a tanker with Patton after Kasserein Pass (sp?) and with him most of time. He was wounded twice and carried shrapnel in his spine but went back anyway. Always loved to hear the stories he would tell.
 

crimsonaudio

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You're welcome, willie52.

Found some killer colorized photos, even this more complete version of the 'sniper' pic from August 8th, 1944:



 

crimsonaudio

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August 15, 1944: The Falaise pocket is still not completely closed. East of Falaise, the Canadians and the Poles slowly push towards the town of Trun in a an attempt to prevent the escape of a greater number of German soldiers to the Seine river. Though Trun is reached today, difficult fights take place around the town, which is defended by elements of the German 7th Army.

General Patton, who has awaits the order to close the pocket to the north, attacks southeast of Argentan, routing the German troops. The U.S. 3rd Army’s XV Corps moves towards Dreux, just 50 miles east of Paris, while the U.S. XX Corps (3rd Army) progresses towards Chartres. The XII Corps (3rd Army) attacks towards Orleans.

In Brittany, the fighting around the city of Brest continue. The U.S. 83rd Infantry Division liberates the villages of Saint-Briac and Saint-Lunaire, which enables the Allies to inch closer of the city of Saint Malo, still fiercely defended by the Germans.

Pictured: German prisoners of war captured in Normandy are guarded by U.S. troops at a camp in Nonant-le-Pin

 

bamachile

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Also on August 15th, Operation Dragoon - the other D-Day - begins in southern France. T/4 (radioman) Alton Shaneyfelt of Etowah County, Alabama, is KIA somewhere near Le Muy hours after he paradrops in with the 517th Parachute Infantry Regiment. He was a cousin (possibly 2nd cousin) of one of my uncles. RIP, Alton.
 

crimsonaudio

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Also on August 15th, Operation Dragoon - the other D-Day - begins in southern France. T/4 (radioman) Alton Shaneyfelt of Etowah County, Alabama, is KIA somewhere near Le Muy hours after he paradrops in with the 517th Parachute Infantry Regiment. He was a cousin (possibly 2nd cousin) of one of my uncles. RIP, Alton.
Yah, I debated long and hard about incorporating that into today's update, as so few people seem to know about Dragoon, but I've avoided updates from other fronts thus far so I didn't want to highlight this and ignore others. Dragoon, while smaller than Overlord, was a BIG operation!
 

TIDE-HSV

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I'd said earlier, when Brad put this up on Facebook, that holding back Patton was strictly Bradley's mistake and it was one which could have shortened the war by weeks, at the least. A quarter million troops let go to fight again is nothing to sneeze at. In fact, I'd say there never would have been a Battle of the Bulge, if the Falaise pocket had been closed promptly. I put no store at all on GOB and Ike's efforts to transfer the blame to Monty...
 

bamachile

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I'd said earlier, when Brad put this up on Facebook, that holding back Patton was strictly Bradley's mistake and it was one which could have shortened the war by weeks, at the least. A quarter million troops let go to fight again is nothing to sneeze at. In fact, I'd say there never would have been a Battle of the Bulge, if the Falaise pocket had been closed promptly. I put no store at all on GOB and Ike's efforts to transfer the blame to Monty...
I've thought about that a few times in the last couple of days - again. I don't like playing shoulda, woulda, coulda with history, but it's difficult to resist the temptation on this one. I know Patton could be an even bigger jerk than is often portrayed (besides the other relatives I mentioned in this thread, one of my father's uncles was a cook in Patton's Third Army), but unchained he may have entered Berlin by Christmas. Between this and Market Garden, though,...
 

TIDE-HSV

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I've thought about that a few times in the last couple of days - again. I don't like playing shoulda, woulda, coulda with history, but it's difficult to resist the temptation on this one. I know Patton could be an even bigger jerk than is often portrayed (besides the other relatives I mentioned in this thread, one of my father's uncles was a cook in Patton's Third Army), but unchained he may have entered Berlin by Christmas. Between this and Market Garden, though,...
Bradley knew well Patton's propensity to outrun support and make risky decisions. I'm sure that had an impact on his thinking. Patton would have functioned well under Hitler in the hey-day of blitzkrieg...
 

crimsonaudio

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And Montgomery tended to overthink things and was (generally speaking) too cautious. It didn't help him, much of the time, and in this case he was far better prepared to move south than Patton was to move north, yet Patton was the one ready to drive the Krauts back to Berlin tomorrow.

I believe that if Patton had been allowed to do as he wished instead of being reigned in by Bradley, the war would indeed have been over before Christmas.
 

TIDE-HSV

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And Montgomery tended to overthink things and was (generally speaking) too cautious. It didn't help him, much of the time, and in this case he was far better prepared to move south than Patton was to move north, yet Patton was the one ready to drive the Krauts back to Berlin tomorrow.

I believe that if Patton had been allowed to do as he wished instead of being reigned in by Bradley, the war would indeed have been over before Christmas.
And with many fewer American casualties...
 

TIDE-HSV

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And Montgomery tended to overthink things and was (generally speaking) too cautious. It didn't help him, much of the time, and in this case he was far better prepared to move south than Patton was to move north, yet Patton was the one ready to drive the Krauts back to Berlin tomorrow.

I believe that if Patton had been allowed to do as he wished instead of being reigned in by Bradley, the war would indeed have been over before Christmas.
And Berlin would have been all Allied occupied...
 

TIDE-HSV

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Bingo. That's the biggie.
And it wouldn't have been just Berlin. It would have probably been all of Brandenburg, as well. We'd agreed with the Soviets to stop at the Elbe, but, IMO, if we had been hundreds of kilometers ahead of schedule, the pressure from the allies on Roosevelt would have forced him to release the leash and let the troops go...
 

Tidewater

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Also on August 15th, Operation Dragoon - the other D-Day - begins in southern France. T/4 (radioman) Alton Shaneyfelt of Etowah County, Alabama, is KIA somewhere near Le Muy hours after he paradrops in with the 517th Parachute Infantry Regiment. He was a cousin (possibly 2nd cousin) of one of my uncles. RIP, Alton.
I was always curious why the invasion of southern France was executed when it was. It might be the availability of landing craft and especially the LSTs. (Winston Churchill was quoted as saying, "the destinies of two great empires... seem to be tied up in some [dadgum] things called LSTs.) Perhaps it was tied to Operation FORTITUDE, the on-going deception of the Germans as to the landings at Pas de Calais. Once you land in the south of France, the deception of Pas de Calais is pretty much over.
It seems to me that DRAGOON was executed too late, though. Some of the German units that reinforced the Normandy front late in the fighting there (e.g. 9th Panzer Div.)came from southern France, and an earlier landing there would have kept them in the south and made the break-out from Normandy possible earlier.
 

4Q Basket Case

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I was always curious why the invasion of southern France was executed when it was. It might be the availability of landing craft and especially the LSTs. (Winston Churchill was quoted as saying, "the destinies of two great empires... seem to be tied up in some [dadgum] things called LSTs.) Perhaps it was tied to Operation FORTITUDE, the on-going deception of the Germans as to the landings at Pas de Calais. Once you land in the south of France, the deception of Pas de Calais is pretty much over.
t seems to me that DRAGOON was executed too late, though.
I agree, but there was the matter of the Anzio operation at about the same time.

Anzio has always been one of my favorites from a historic perspective. A great idea, executed with too few resources (both men and material). As a result of a half-done execution, a bunch of good men got killed, and the operation dang near got thrown back into the sea.

The reason for the short resources? We were staging for Normandy. A most legitimate reason for not releasing the necessary means for Anzio, but a lesson that has served me well in a lot of situations since I became aware of the considerations....if you attempt an operation at all you do it with overwhelming force. You commit so many resources that only a dolt could fail.

As my friend Isaiah 63:1 likes to say, "if you're gonna be a bear, be a grizzly."

Point being, the Allies couldn't have supported three amphibious invasions (Normandy, Southern France, and Anzio) essentially simultaneously.

I don't disagree with the benefits of a second French landing. But you then doom the Italian campaign to a man-chewing meatgrinder for no real good reason. Under that scenario, the France-to-Germany thrust would have reached Berlin well before the poor SOBs in central Italy made it to Tuscany.

It's easy to throw rocks when you look at only a segment. When you view the whole, though, with resources that are not limitless, you realize that boosting one thing necessarily takes away from the other.

Who do you make life hard (and short) on? The guys in Northern France, or the guys in Central Italy? What do you tell their mothers?

Man, I'm glad I didn't have to make those decisions.
 
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TIDE-HSV

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Good post. I've had some of the same thoughts over the years. Italy was literally a meat-grinder, all the way up. With their worries in the east and west, I've always wondered at the amount of resources the Germans committed to the battle for Italy, even when they knew well that the Fascist cause was not really backed by the majority of the population and finally treated the Italians as enemies and the country as an occupied enemy country. I can only think that Hitler's ego and his almost reverence for "Il Duce" as a role model played a part...
 

Tidewater

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Re: Normandy daily - 1944

I agree, but there was the matter of the Anzio operation at about the same time.

Anzio has always been one of my favorites from a historic perspective. A great idea, executed with too few resources (both men and material). As a result of a half-done execution, a bunch of good men got killed, and the operation dang near got thrown back into the sea.

The reason for the short resources? We were staging for Normandy. A most legitimate reason for not releasing the necessary means for Anzio, but a lesson that has served me well in a lot of situations since I became aware of the considerations....if you attempt an operation at all you do it with overwhelming force. You commit so many resources that only a dolt could fail.

As my friend Isaiah 63:1 likes to say, "if you're gonna be a bear, be a grizzly."

Point being, the Allies couldn't have supported three amphibious invasions (Normandy, Southern France, and Anzio) essentially simultaneously.

I don't disagree with the benefits of a second French landing. But you then doom the Italian campaign to a man-chewing meatgrinder for no real good reason. Under that scenario, the France-to-Germany thrust would have reached Berlin well before the poor SOBs in central Italy made it to Tuscany.

It's easy to throw rocks when you look at only a segment. When you view the whole, though, with resources that are not limitless, you realize that boosting one thing necessarily takes away from the other.

Who do you make life hard (and short) on? The guys in Northern France, or the guys in Central Italy? What do you tell their mothers?

Man, I'm glad I didn't have to make those decisions.
Anzio was January 1944. Normandy June '44. Dragoon August '44. They weren't exactly simultaneous, but I agree Anzio was a waste of limited resources.
To conduct an amphibious landing, some resources are crtitically important. These include LCIs' landing craft infantry and tank (LCIs and LCTs), and especially Landing Ships, tank (LSTs). While the Brits at Arromanches used their Mulberry artificial harbor, even after the big storm, the Americans just resorted to the standard American technique of beaching the LSTs at high tide, and unloading the ship until the next high tide refloated the beached ship. In other words, the Americans were using their LSTs for logistics well after the fighting had swept away from the beaches. As I posted earlier, Cherbourg did not become operational until the end of July, so maybe there is my answer. It took that long to shift the LSTs, etc. to the Med for Op DRAGOON.
As for the Italian front, after Sicily from the German perspective, Italy was all flank and little front. After Salerno, Op SLAPSTICK (Taranto) and Op BAYTOWN (the "Toe of Italy" at Reggio) got the Italians to quit the Axis (mid-September 1943), I would have gone pretty passive in Italy and concentrated scarce resources on other more decisive theaters. Blood and ammunition expended in Italy after September 1943 was just a waste.
If I was Smiling Al Kesselring, I would have hoped and prayed that the Allies would have attacked Italy exactly as they did. Start at the Toe and working their way up the Boot, defensive line after defensive line.
The Allies took Corsica in September 1943 and that put Livorno, La Spezia and even Toulon and Marseilles within Allied fighter range. In January 1944, the entire German force in the former Vichy territory was six coastal divisions, three infantry divisions and two Panzer Divisions (9th Panzer and 2nd SS Panzer). Marseilles and Toulon were pretty big ports and once they were seized and the inevitable German damage to the port facilities repaired, they could have supported Allied logistics very well. Rather than executing landings at Anzio, I believe a landing in the south of France in January 1944 could have taken Marseilles & Toulon and gotten those ports ready for logistical support by the time of the breakout from Normandy.
 
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crimsonaudio

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August 16, 1944: The Americans continue their progression to the east of Argentan and Alencon, and the pursuit of the German forces fleeing to Falaise. Dreux and Chartres are liberated by the XX Corps and the XV Corps (both 3rd Army).

The Canadians and the Poles (to the north of Argentan) continue they progresss as well: Falaise is finally liberated by the 2nd Corps belonging to the Canadian 1st Army (led by General Crerar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Crerar)). By nightfall the 21st Army Group (led by General Montgomery) controls the following towns (from west to east): Condé-sur-Noireau, part of the town of Flers, Saint-Denis and Pont-d'Ouilly. Difficult fighting continues near the village of Trun, which is ultimately liberated by the Canadians.

At 03:30 pm General Montgomery orders the closure of the pocket from the village of Trun, though Bradley believes it is already too late and that much of the German army has retreated towards the Seine river.

The Allies begin preparing a new offensive, codenamed Operation Paddle, in order to break the German lines to the east of Caen. The launch of this offensive is planned for August 17 and is to be led by the Belgian brigade of Colonel Piron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Baptiste_Piron). The first soldier of the Belgian Piron Brigade is killed in Normandy on August 16 - private Edouard Gerard, 20, killed at Sallenelles.

Hitler reverses his earlier decision and orders his troops out of Nor.mandy to a new defense line in north.eastern France on the Somme and Marne rivers. The Operation Dragoon landings in southern France opened a second front, providing the Allies with additional and sorely needed port facilities at Mar.seille and Tou.lon.

Pictured: Canadians move into Falaise, Joplin News Herald headline about the Falaise pocket.



 
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