World War II Daily: DDay to VEDay

Tidewater · Aug 16, 2014

Re: Normandy daily - 1944

As I suspected, Allied strategic decision-making was a mess. See Chapter 1 of Riviera to the Rhine
The Brits wanted to emphasize Italy or the Balkans. The Americans were pushing for an invasion in the south of France. The Allies ended up just muddling through.
Ike (as the Allied commander in the Med), initially planned the invasion to precede OVERLORD, or be simultaneous with it. Scarce shipping made that impossible. Once the Channel storm of 18 June delayed the build-up in Normandy, Ike could not release the shipping to the Med. The Brits wanted to give Italy priority in the Med, so Ike pushed for it to follow OVERLORD as soon as possible. In the end, the shipping was not available until around mid-August. DRAGOON was led by the US 3th ID, the 36th ID and the 45th ID with the Free French army following on (and performing satisfactorily).

Tidewater · Aug 16, 2014

Re: Normandy daily - 1944

crimsonaudio said:

Falaise was still pretty bad for the Germans.

Breakout and Pursuit said:
By the end of [21 August 1944], the strength of six of seven armored divisions that had escaped the pocket totaled, as reported at that time, no more than 2,000 men, 62 tanks, and 26 artillery pieces. Later estimates of the total number of Germans escaping varied between 20,000 and 40,000 men, but combat troops formed by far the smaller proportion of these troops. The average combat strength of divisions was no more than a few hundred men, even though the over-all strength of some divisions came close to 3,000.

The Allies captured 50,000 prisoners and found 10,000 German KIA, so between 60-75% of the forces west of Falaise were killed, wounded or captured.
One American officer who had seen service in World War I who walked the scene of the carnage at Falaise wrote:

I stood on a lane, surrounded by 20 or 30 dead horses or parts of horses, most of them still hitched to their wagons and carts. ... As far as my eye could reach (about 200 yards) on every line of sight, there were . . . vehicles, wagons, tanks, guns, prime movers, sedans, rolling kitchens, etc., in various stages of destruction. . . .

I stepped over hundreds of rifles in the mud and saw hundreds more stacked along sheds. ... I walked through a mile or more of lanes where the vehicles had been caught closely packed. ... I saw probably 300 field pieces and tanks, mounting large caliber guns, that were apparently undamaged.

I saw no foxholes or any other type of shelter or field fortifications. The Germans were trying to run and had no place to run. They were probably too exhausted to dig. . . . They were probably too tired even to surrender.

I left this area rather regretting I'd seen it. . . . Under such conditions there are no supermen— all men become rabbits looking for a hole.

crimsonaudio · Aug 16, 2014

Re: Normandy daily - 1944

Yup - that's why earlier in the thread when you mentioned Falaise I *shuddered*. It was a massacre.

Tidewater · Aug 16, 2014

Re: Normandy daily - 1944

crimsonaudio said:
Yup - that's why earlier in the thread when you mentioned Falaise I *shuddered*. It was a massacre.

Yeah, that was a bad day to be a German soldier. One bad day among many bad days.

4Q Basket Case · Aug 16, 2014

Re: Normandy daily - 1944

Tidewater said:
Anzio was January 1944. Normandy June '44. Dragoon August '44. They weren't exactly simultaneous, but I agree Anzio was a waste of limited resources.

Logistics 70 years ago were just different, both getting them from the US production line, and move them around the theater of war once they were across the pond. You just couldn't move stuff around the globe with the speed and in the volume we can do today.

I don't think there was any way to plan, train for, stage, and properly equip three major amphibious landings in eight months. At least not to the extent needed to apply the overwhelming force necessary to make the inherent risk worth taking.

Meatgrinder though it was, I do see one major benefit of the Italian campaign...it tied up a bunch of German forces that would have otherwise been in France. Still, it's hard to look a private in the eye and say, "I'm sorry, son. Your job is to occupy these guys, laying down your life, if necessary, so the real work in France can be done more easily."

crimsonaudio said:
Yup - that's why earlier in the thread when you mentioned Falaise I *shuddered*. It was a massacre.

Thanks, CA. Not so much for the above post, but for running this thread. I'm pretty conversant in the general strategic thrusts of WWII, but the daily movements are not so familiar. I really appreciate what you're doing here. Must be a labor of love.

I saw no foxholes or any other type of shelter or field fortifications. The Germans were trying to run and had no place to run. They were probably too exhausted to dig. . . . They were probably too tired even to surrender.

I left this area rather regretting I'd seen it. . . . Under such conditions there are no supermen— all men become rabbits looking for a hole.

Outstanding quote, Tidewater. The quote from a WWII officer reminded me of the destruction along miles and miles of road at the end of Desert Storm. He was thinking back to his own experience at the end of WWI, when Germany collapsed.

Seems we always forget the end game when we're full of adrenaline and testosterone at the beginning.

Tidewater · Aug 16, 2014

Re: Normandy daily - 1944

4Q Basket Case said:
Logistics 70 years ago were just different, both getting them from the US production line, and move them around the theater of war once they were across the pond. You just couldn't move stuff around the globe with the speed and in the volume we can do today.

I don't think there was any way to plan, train for, stage, and properly equip three major amphibious landings in eight months. At least not to the extent needed to apply the overwhelming force necessary to make the inherent risk worth taking.

Meatgrinder though it was, I do see one major benefit of the Italian campaign...it tied up a bunch of German forces that would have otherwise been in France. Still, it's hard to look a private in the eye and say, "I'm sorry, son. Your job is to occupy these guys, laying down your life, if necessary, so the real work in France can be done more easily."

Thanks, CA. Not so much for the above post, but for running this thread. I'm pretty conversant in the general strategic thrusts of WWII, but the daily movements are not so familiar. I really appreciate what you're doing here. Must be a labor of love.

I saw no foxholes or any other type of shelter or field fortifications. The Germans were trying to run and had no place to run. They were probably too exhausted to dig. . . . They were probably too tired even to surrender.

I left this area rather regretting I'd seen it. . . . Under such conditions there are no supermen— all men become rabbits looking for a hole.

Outstanding quote, Tidewater. The quote from a WWII officer reminded me of the destruction along miles and miles of road at the end of Desert Storm. He was thinking back to his own experience at the end of WWI, when Germany collapsed.

Seems we always forget the end game when we're full of adrenaline and testosterone at the beginning.

I got to wander around the "Highway of Death" in Kuwait (the Basra Road) after the Iraqis had bugged out. Carnage is the only way to describe it. One Iraqi Army truck I found had 37 SA-7 shoulder fired anti-aircraft missiles, still in their cases, with batteries and gripstocks ready to fire, if one of the Iraqi soldiers had known they were there and knew how to fire them (SA-7s aren't too complicated). The driver, during the carnage, just lept out the door and ran into the desert, leaving the truckload of SA-7s behind.
Just miles and miles of carnage.

crimsonaudio · Aug 16, 2014

Re: Normandy daily - 1944

That outstanding quote is from 'Brothers, Rivals, Victors: Eisenhower, Patton, Bradley and the Partnership that Drove the Allied Conquest in Europe' by Jonathan W. Jordan - this is how it appears in his book:

To see the battlefield himself, Ike toured roads littered with charred corpses, the detritus of the Fifth Panzer and Seventh Armies. Bloated, blackened carcasses of horse and human lay thick as far as the eye could see, strings of corpses punctuated by burned and abandoned equipment. As one officer attached to bradley's group described the scene:
"It was as if an avenging angel had swept the area bent on destroying all things German... I saw no foxholes or any other type of shelter or field fortifications. The Germans were trying to run and had no place to run. They were probably too exhausted to dig.... They were probably too tired even to surrender. I left this area rather regretting I'd seen it... Under such conditions there are no supermen - all men become rabbits looking for a hole."

TexasBama · Aug 16, 2014

Re: Normandy daily - 1944

Tidewater said:
I got to wander around the "Highway of Death" in Kuwait (the Basra Road) after the Iraqis had bugged out. Carnage is the only way to describe it. One Iraqi Army truck I found had 37 SA-7 shoulder fired anti-aircraft missiles, still in their cases, with batteries and gripstocks ready to fire, if one of the Iraqi soldiers had known they were there and knew how to fire them (SA-7s aren't too complicated). The driver, during the carnage, just lept out the door and ran into the desert, leaving the truckload of SA-7s behind.
Just miles and miles of carnage.

A friend of mine was in one of the lead elements of VII Corp, capturing fuel for the tanks. He said it was like a NASCAR pit. Top em off and roll em out.

TIDE-HSV · Aug 16, 2014

Re: Normandy daily - 1944

Tidewater said:
Anzio was January 1944. Normandy June '44. Dragoon August '44. They weren't exactly simultaneous, but I agree Anzio was a waste of limited resources.
To conduct an amphibious landing, some resources are crtitically important. These include LCIs' landing craft infantry and tank (LCIs and LCTs), and especially Landing Ships, tank (LSTs). While the Brits at Arromanches used their Mulberry artificial harbor, even after the big storm, the Americans just resorted to the standard American technique of beaching the LSTs at high tide, and unloading the ship until the next high tide refloated the beached ship. In other words, the Americans were using their LSTs for logistics well after the fighting had swept away from the beaches. As I posted earlier, Cherbourg did not become operational until the end of July, so maybe there is my answer. It took that long to shift the LSTs, etc. to the Med for Op DRAGOON.
As for the Italian front, after Sicily from the German perspective, Italy was all flank and little front. After Salerno, Op SLAPSTICK (Taranto) and Op BAYTOWN (the "Toe of Italy" at Reggio) got the Italians to quit the Axis (mid-September 1943), I would have gone pretty passive in Italy and concentrated scarce resources on other more decisive theaters. Blood and ammunition expended in Italy after September 1943 was just a waste.
If I was Smiling Al Kesselring, I would have hoped and prayed that the Allies would have attacked Italy exactly as they did. Start at the Toe and working their way up the Boot, defensive line after defensive line.
The Allies took Corsica in September 1943 and that put Livorno, La Spezia and even Toulon and Marseilles within Allied fighter range. In January 1944, the entire German force in the former Vichy territory was six coastal divisions, three infantry divisions and two Panzer Divisions (9th Panzer and 2nd SS Panzer). Marseilles and Toulon were pretty big ports and once they were seized and the inevitable German damage to the port facilities repaired, they could have supported Allied logistics very well. Rather than executing landings at Anzio, I believe a landing in the south of France in January 1944 could have taken Marseilles & Toulon and gotten those ports ready for logistical support by the time of the breakout from Normandy.

I agree wholeheartedly with this post. Italy never made any sense to me. I've often wondered if it were sop thrown to Stalin, with his continual begging, pleading and even hectoring for a "second front."

bamachile · Aug 16, 2014

Re: Normandy daily - 1944

TIDE-HSV said:
I agree wholeheartedly with this post. Italy never made any sense to me. I've often wondered if it were sop thrown to Stalin, with his continual begging, pleading and even hectoring for a "second front."

Yeah, but it brought us Willie and Joe.

Tidewater · Aug 16, 2014

Re: Normandy daily - 1944

Just found this:
The Allied logistical planners figured the DRAGOON landings would have capture Toulon on D+20 (5 September) and Marseilles on D+45 (o/a 1 October). Then they would have to repair the damage. (Riviera to the Rhine, p. 203-205.)
As events turned out, the French cleared out Toulon and Marseilles well ahead of schedule.

On 15 September the first Liberty ship came into the port of Marseille for direct ship-to-shore discharge; and by the end of the month eighteen quayside unloading berths were in use.
During September the port of Marseille took in approximately 113,500 long tons of general cargo, 32,800 vehicles, and 10,000 barrels of POL. In contrast Toulon, in the same month, handled about 3,440 long tons of general cargo, 19,000 tons of Civil Affairs supplies, 23,630 vehicles, and 80,000 barrels of POL.
Port-de-Bouc, a satellite port about twenty-two miles west of Marseille, served primarily for the discharge of POL products. The FFI had secured Port-de-Bouc and three nearby oil refineries, which the Germans had not destroyed. Part of the 335th Engineer General Service Regiment moved over from Marseille to undertake the repair of port facilities, aided by local French contractors, while elements of the 697th and 1379th Engineer Petroleum Distribution Companies (EPDs) rehabilitated the lightly damaged refineries, aided by oil company employees. On 10 September U.S. Army engineers began constructing a pipeline for 80-octane gasoline from the Port-de-Bouc area, but it was early November before the line was working as far as Lyon.

Marseilles was a pretty big port and was operational pretty quickly.
In reference to the highlighted portion: "Hey, Fritz, did you remember to blow up the oil refinery?" "Nope. I forgot. I was saying goodbye to my French girlfriend."

Tidewater · Aug 16, 2014

Re: Normandy daily - 1944

TIDE-HSV said:
I agree wholeheartedly with this post. Italy never made any sense to me. I've often wondered if it were sop thrown to Stalin, with his continual begging, pleading and even hectoring for a "second front."

If I had a bunch of disposable time, I'd like to go division by division in France in 1944 and see when they left their defensive positions on the coast and made their way to Normandy. As bad as Normandy was for the Allies, it was worse for the Germans and they kept stripping other places for reinforcements to feed into the Normandy meat grinder. For example, I know the 2nd SS Panzer left Vichy territory and was involved in the fighting in Normandy by August, maybe earlier. What other divisions left the areas of Bordeaux, Calais or southern France to go to Normandy?
Maybe the reason why DRAGOON was so successful is that every German unit worth anything had already been sent to Normandy by 15 August. On the other hand, the 11th Panzer was still in Gascony and ended up as the rearguard for the German 19th Army as it retreated up the Rhone towards Germany in September/October 1944.

Tidewater · Aug 16, 2014

Re: Normandy daily - 1944

TexasBama said:
A friend of mine was in one of the lead elements of VII Corp, capturing fuel for the tanks. He said it was like a NASCAR pit. Top em off and roll em out.

I got mentioned in this book: Iron Soldiers. I was way out in front of the VII Corps, although the author shall we say, "embellished" the story a bit.

TexasBama · Aug 16, 2014

Re: Normandy daily - 1944

Tidewater said:
I got mentioned in this book: Iron Soldiers. I was way out in front of the VII Corps, although the author shall we say, "embellished" the story a bit.

I will have to read that.

My friend was a reserve Lt Col. Logistics guy. He loaded Bliss and Hood equipment through Corpus for 2nd Iraq and followed on from there also.

Edit - were you at 73 Easting?

Tidewater · Aug 17, 2014

Re: Normandy daily - 1944

TexasBama said:
I will have to read that.

I can't recommend the book. It is not that good. Except one brief part.

My friend was a reserve Lt Col. Logistics guy. He loaded Bliss and Hood equipment through Corpus for 2nd Iraq and followed on from there also.

Edit - were you at 73 Easting?

No, I was I was in front of the 1st AD until they caught up with me.

Tidewater · Aug 17, 2014

Re: Normandy daily - 1944

4Q Basket Case said:
Logistics 70 years ago were just different, both getting them from the US production line, and move them around the theater of war once they were across the pond. You just couldn't move stuff around the globe with the speed and in the volume we can do today.

True. The tyranny of distance is unforgiving. Still, the US did offer to move landing ships from the Pacific to the European theater if it helped them get their way (in this case, the landing in the south of France), but this offer was in spring of 1943 for a landing in France in 1944.*
The Allies did move landing ships between the European Theater of Operations (ETO) to the Mediterranean North African Theater of Operations (MNATO). In fact, this is what they ended up doing. Some LSTs, for example, supported Anzio (Jan '44), then went to England for OVERLORD (June '44), then back to the Med for DRAGOON (August '44).
One of the serious logistical considerations in favor of southern France was it gave the Allies a chance to get the Free French army forming in North Africa a chance to get into the game. They did not have enough shipping to ship the Free French army to England and get them into Normandy, but landing them in southern France did.

I don't think there was any way to plan, train for, stage, and properly equip three major amphibious landings in eight months. At least not to the extent needed to apply the overwhelming force necessary to make the inherent risk worth taking.

And yet they did manage to conduct the amphibious landing at Anzio which was risky and promised only limited gains. It is like using a flea-flicker just to throw a screen pass. If you are going to accept all the risk of conducting a risky amphibious landing), at least do it for a big pay-off. Plus, going bold (i.e south of France), gave the Allies a chance to "hit'em where they ain't." Landing at Anzio was so close to the German front at Monte Cassino, they Germans successfully shifted assets from the Monte Cassino front to Anzio pretty quickly, causing multiple headaches for the Anzio landings, because they were so close.

Meatgrinder though it was, I do see one major benefit of the Italian campaign...it tied up a bunch of German forces that would have otherwise been in France. Still, it's hard to look a private in the eye and say, "I'm sorry, son. Your job is to occupy these guys, laying down your life, if necessary, so the real work in France can be done more easily."

As U. S. Grant said of the largely incompetent General Franz Sigel in the Shenandoah Valley in 1864, "If he can't skin, at least he can hold a leg while someone else skins."

* American planners were frustrated with the British penny-ante proposed ops, like landing in Yugoslavia or the Dodecanese. Meanwhile, Nimitz and Doug were screaming for all the assets they could get. "If the Brits are going to go for small things that don't yield great results, we can use them in the Pacific."

crimsonaudio · Aug 17, 2014

Re: Normandy daily - 1944

August 17, 1944: The front line to the east of Caen, which has remained relatively stable since July 18, finally moves with the start of Operation Paddle, which aims at breaking up the German line of defense east of the Orne river. The 41st Royal Marines Commandos liberate the village of Troarn, resuming progress after a month of near stand-still. The Belgian Colonel Jean Piron pushes eastward and liberates Sallenelles, near the Orne river and continues his advance up to Franceville, which is attacked and liberated by 08:00 pm by the 3rd Motorized unit.

The 7th German Army and the 5th Panzer Army, almost completely surrounded, try to retreat beyond the Seine river. To do so, they must leave the pocket - which is slowly closing in on them. Many units gather in retreat to a 5 mile wide corridor remaining in the region of Chambois, the taking of which is the objective of the Polish 1st Armored Division and the Canadian 4th Armored Division. The French 2nd Armored Division also participates in the encirclement and pushes north of Ecouché in the face of the German 116th Armored Division. On August 17, the pocket is 10 miles wide and 20 miles long.

The Germans are bombarded continuously, day and night. Allied airmen and gunners relentlessly attack the Wehrmacht and Panzer divisions as they attempt to retreat eastward toward the Seine river. Despite the disastrous situation for the German forces, their retreat is rapid: nearly a third of the Axis encircled forces slip out of the pocket today alone.

Pictured: The formation of the Falaise Pocket from August 8–17 1944; a low level picture taken of destroyed German equipment that littered the Falaise Pocket area, much of it destroyed by Allied airpower that roamed at will over the roads packed with the transport of the 7th Army as it tried to escape the pocket

bama579 · Aug 17, 2014

Re: Normandy daily - 1944

Wow. How did I miss this thread for so long? Great stuff.

Special thanks to Crimsonaudio for the start and ongoing updates.

crimsonaudio · Aug 18, 2014

Re: Normandy daily - 1944

August 18, 1944: The five-mile corridor near Chambois which allows the German forces to escape to the east is gradually closed by the Allies. Since beginning of the evacuation of the German troops towards the Seine river on August 13, nearly 55,000 men have escaped - about 40% of the German forces initially threatened by the Allied encirclement.

The allied forces do not close the pocket directly south of Falaise, but instead try to catch up with the German troops to the east. There are still several thousand German soldiers surrounded in the pocket who have not reached the town of Falaise. These units, armed with tanks and cannons, are bombarded day and night by the Allied air force and artillery. Normandy is a disaster for the Germans: the roads in the pocket are littered with destroyed vehicles and bodies. The rout is absolute, and the German occupation of Normandy is almost over.

Operation Paddle continues to the east of Caen and the last German troops that were positioned to the east of the Orne river are pushed to the other side by the paratroopers of the British 6th Airborne Division. In the north, the soldiers of Piron’s Belgian Brigade liberate the village of Merville after liberating the town of Franceville the day before.

Pictured: German column destroyed by the Polish 1st Armored Division; German POWs from Falaise

Tidewater · Aug 18, 2014

Re: Normandy daily - 1944

crimsonaudio said:
Operation Paddle continues to the east of Caen and the last German troops that were positioned to the east of the Orne river are pushed to the other side by the paratroopers of the British 6th Airborne Division.

I am fairly shocked that the British 6th Airborne Division is still in the line at this late date. An airborne division is a fairly specialized unit with some very useful capabilities. It can jump way behind enemy lines and seize important objectives. Using the 6th Airborne as leg infantry was a waste of that capability.
The Americans got the 101st and 82nd out of the line earlier than that. The 82nd was back in England by 13 July 1944, getting ready for the next jump. The 101st was relieved and back in England by mid-July.
The Brits had two airborne divisions in the summer of 1944, the 1st and the 6th. The 6th jumped into Normandy, the 1st at Holland.

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