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Cop in MO kills unarmed black teen

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NationalTitles18

NationalTitles18

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No apologies needed.

To clarify: I felt the cop made a mistake in quickly backing up to get very near the suspects. The testimonies seem to agree to some degree that this was done after they continued walking down the street after he admonished them to get to the sidewalk. Did they make the cop mad by questioning his authority? Knowing several LEO's myself, I would say yes. Did that play a part in his setting the scene like he did getting so close to the suspects? I don't know. It is possible.

As for the economic situation, it is a tragedy. The educational malaise is a further tragedy which exacerbates the first. The laws are skewed against minorities in some ways. Otherwise, why the war on drugs and extra penalties for crack vs cocaine?

Many of these same issues were at play when MLK gave this speech over 40 years ago: http://www.gphistorical.org/mlk/mlkspeech/

That's a shame. We say we want these folks to pull up by their bootstraps. We want them to participate in the democratic process. We want them to embrace capitalism.

And yet we give them no incentive. We keep them from voting for possessing a small amount of drugs and we incarcerate them in prison longer than murderers. Then we wonder where are the fathers. We leave them to languish in dumpster fires they call schools. And many of their parents we beat down so mercilessly that they don't believe anything different will happen. They don't believe that opportunity exists. Not for them. And then they teach their kid the same.

I can understand it to some degree growing up poor and white myself. My own mother told me as recently as a few short months ago that I'd never be rich. That I'd never get ahead. And this is more than 2 years after obtaining my master's. And just before I changed jobs that provided a major boost in income into a whole new bracket. I'm not rich - that for sure - but we are getting by well after struggling for years. And the foundation that made it possible was education. My own mother believed in education greatly - perhaps not enough, because she didn't believe in the system enough to believe I could move through the socioeconomic stratas to get even to this point. The major point here is if my mother has that little faith, then I can see where others who have been treated far worse and suffered much more could lose hope for better.

And it's not on just them to change it.

And if we don't change it then we will fall apart as a country. Because we have stopped listening to one another. We take sides. And few of us ask "Is it right?"
 
Bazza

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Some really good posts to think about - thank you guys.

My pet peeves on all this are:

1) the way the media fans the flames

2) the lack of leadership from those in government who could be very helpful but are not saying or doing the right things, IMHO


I feel that civilization is going backwards - I really do. Those 2 items above are the main reason why. It's not us the people...it's the instigators!
 
crimsonaudio

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Tidewater said:
Yes, but which way? Which is cause and which is effect?
Click to expand...
Considering there are plenty of examples of those who are driven and are able to subdue the desire for instant gratification succeeding, I suspect that one of the major causes of poverty is the inability to think longterm rather than short term. I've worked with and known many very poor families over the years and one thing that always seems to be common amongst those that never 'get ahead' is the decision making which almost always favors instant 9or near-instant) gratification.
 
twofbyc

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I guess this argument will go on until something major happens. I for one, have no problem with a cop "cornering" perps after they obviously ignored his warning to quit walking down the middle of the street. Like Mr. Watson, I am confused by the ignorance and arrogance some people have that think it's OK to ignore a cop doing his job, and that it's OK to assault said cop.

It's coming, Earle, and it will be ugly; the only problem is, it will be 3-sided.
And CA, we, as a society, condone "instant gratification", and have for many years. It shouldn't be surprising that this endorsement has seeped through all levels of society, and is festering at the bottom.
 
crimsonaudio

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twofbyc said:
And CA, we, as a society, condone "instant gratification", and have for many years. It shouldn't be surprising that this endorsement has seeped through all levels of society, and is festering at the bottom.
Click to expand...
Oh it's not surprising, I just think that it's likely one of the major causes of continued poverty. Whether it be materialism or the lack of long-term vision to understand the value of education, short-term vision seems to dominate the long-term poor I've known.
 
Tidewater

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crimsonaudio said:
Considering there are plenty of examples of those who are driven and are able to subdue the desire for instant gratification succeeding, I suspect that one of the major causes of poverty is the inability to think longterm rather than short term. I've worked with and known many very poor families over the years and one thing that always seems to be common amongst those that never 'get ahead' is the decision making which almost always favors instant 9or near-instant) gratification.
Click to expand...
I have mentioned her on this board several times, but my sister is a case study in the causality. She grew up in the same household I did (just a few years later), with the same familial pathologies I did.
I have a four MAs, two houses (one owned outright), and a full time job that pays me in the high five figures. I have no worries at all where next month's mortgage payment is going to come from. I will never own beach front property in Miami, but I am comfortable. I say this not to brag, but for comparison.
My sister, however, earned her BA four years ago at the age of 36, at a private school (because they had a nice brochure) and took out the maximum amount of student loans to pay for it (and used the surplus loan money to buy things she wanted, but did not need). She has declared bankruptcy twice, so she has to pay through the nose to finance anything (like a car or house). She is twice divorced, now a single mom. She is back in school to get another BA, because she realized she could not hold a job in the field related to her first BA, and she is taking out massive student loans to pay for BA #2). She lives paycheck to paycheck, and there is never enough money to pay for the necessities, because she spends her money on "nice to haves" like two cars, charitable donations to the Sierra Club, a second Bachelor's degree, a cell phone per child, high speed internet, Netflix subscription, a new laptop computer per child, etc., etc. She comes to me periodically, in tears, saying "I don't have enough money to pay my rent." I tell her, "Sure you do. Prioritize your expenditures, pay the 'got to haves,' first (e.g. rent, food, electricity, car payment), then pay the 'nice to haves' (like a second car, cell phones, internet, Netflix)." She refuses to do this, however, because she is eaten up with envy towards people who have more than she has. She tells me all the time that she is green with envy when she sees someone who has a bigger house than her, a nicer car than her, etc. etc. She seems incapable of understanding the causal relationship between making good life-decisions and living an easier life. When she sees something she wants, she buys it the instant she (momentarily) has the money in her pocket. When she does get a little money, she has to spend it instantly, rather than paying off her creditors. The idea that, when living in debt so she can buy now something that she wants, means that next year's surplus (if there is any) has already been spent on last year's "I'd like to have" items. The whole concept of time-preference is completely foreign to her. When she wants something, she buys it. The future can go jump in a lake. When the bill-collector comes tomorrow, he is simply being mean.
I'm afraid that at end her life, she is still going to be massively in debt.

So, what does this have to do with Ferguson? In my sister's case, bad decisions directly cause poverty. Poverty does not cause bad decisions. If it did, I'd be poor as well. I came from the same dysfunctional upbringing.

And, I have to add, my sister is a dyed-in-the-wool Obama Democrat. There might be a causal relationship there as well.
 
Al A Bama

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Tidewater said:
I have mentioned her on this board several times, but my sister is a case study in the causality. She grew up in the same household I did (just a few years later), with the same familial pathologies I did.
I have a four MAs, two houses (one owned outright), and a full time job that pays me in the high five figures. I have no worries at all where next month's mortgage payment is going to come from. I will never own beach front property in Miami, but I am comfortable. I say this not to brag, but for comparison.
My sister, however, earned her BA four years ago at the age of 36, at a private school (because they had a nice brochure) and took out the maximum amount of student loans to pay for it (and used the surplus loan money to buy things she wanted, but did not need). She has declared bankruptcy twice, so she has to pay through the nose to finance anything (like a car or house). She is twice divorced, now a single mom. She is back in school to get another BA, because she realized she could not hold a job in the field related to her first BA, and she is taking out massive student loans to pay for BA #2). She lives paycheck to paycheck, and there is never enough money to pay for the necessities, because she spends her money on "nice to haves" like two cars, charitable donations to the Sierra Club, a second Bachelor's degree, a cell phone per child, high speed internet, Netflix subscription, a new laptop computer per child, etc., etc. She comes to me periodically, in tears, saying "I don't have enough money to pay my rent." I tell her, "Sure you do. Prioritize your expenditures, pay the 'got to haves,' first (e.g. rent, food, electricity, car payment), then pay the 'nice to haves' (like a second car, cell phones, internet, Netflix)." She refuses to do this, however, because she is eaten up with envy towards people who have more than she has. She tells me all the time that she is green with envy when she sees someone who has a bigger house than her, a nicer car than her, etc. etc. She seems incapable of understanding the causal relationship between making good life-decisions and living an easier life. When she sees something she wants, she buys it the instant she (momentarily) has the money in her pocket. When she does get a little money, she has to spend it instantly, rather than paying off her creditors. The idea that, when living in debt so she can buy now something that she wants, means that next year's surplus (if there is any) has already been spent on last year's "I'd like to have" items. The whole concept of time-preference is completely foreign to her. When she wants something, she buys it. The future can go jump in a lake. When the bill-collector comes tomorrow, he is simply being mean.
I'm afraid that at end her life, she is still going to be massively in debt.

So, what does this have to do with Ferguson? In my sister's case, bad decisions directly cause poverty. Poverty does not cause bad decisions. If it did, I'd be poor as well. I came from the same dysfunctional upbringing.

And, I have to add, my sister is a dyed-in-the-wool Obama Democrat. There might be a causal relationship there as well.
Click to expand...
If I learned anything from my parents it was the value of a buck. My father worked for $5.00 a week during the Great Depression and my mother never let me forget it. I picked cotton for my first job. I earned 3 cents a pound. I picked all day and still did not have 100 pounds. I think I do know the value of a dollar because of what they never had.

I do NOT want anything that I have not worked to earn! I would be embarrassed if I had to live on Welfare. I don't care who has more than me. What they have is no concern of mine. Maybe they are/were more enterprising and energetic. Maybe they are/were more creative. Maybe they are/were willing to gamble on an idea or a product.

When I leave this world, I do not want to owe anyone for bills that I have created. I honestly can't stand to have a bill in the mailbox when I go each day.

I just could not live the way your sister does. Seems she needs a good dose of reality.

My wife has the same philosophy. Thank God. A shopping wife can destroy a budget. Does your sister know what a BUDGET is? Seems like her favorite President doesn't know what a budget is, either.
 
Tidewater

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Al A Bama said:
If I learned anything from my parents it was the value of a buck. My father worked for $5.00 a week during the Great Depression and my mother never let me forget it. I picked cotton for my first job. I earned 3 cents a pound. I picked all day and still did not have 100 pounds. I think I do know the value of a dollar because of what they never had.
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This is the source of the nobility of the people of Alabama. There is no shame is not being rich. There is shame not living within your means. This is why I love the state and her people.
... I just could not live the way your sister does. Seems she needs a good dose of reality.
Click to expand...
She gets a does of reality almost daily. It just never sinks in and never changes her mentality.
My wife has the same philosophy. Thank God.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a good woman. Hang onto that one.
Does your sister know what a BUDGET is?
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I have sat down with her repeatedly and drawn up a budget using her financial data. She agrees she needs to follow it. Then he kids come to her and say, "I want this!" On those rare occasions when my sister says they cannot afford the item, my niece and nephew hit her with the "If you loved me, you'd buy this for me! All my friends have one! I'm so underprivileged! Woe is me!" Then the dam breaks and my sister gives in.
Seems like her favorite President doesn't know what a budget is, either.
Click to expand...
I believe my sister really believes in getting a free lunch.

If I could wave a magic wand and give my sister one thing, it would be to include the words "No," and "Wait," in her vocabulary. That would do more to end her problems than giving her a million dollars.
 
Tidewater

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Bazza said:
Click to expand...
Thanks for that. One interesting question was "Did MB put his hands up when fired upon?" seem ambiguous. If by this you mean, MB was fired upon, then he raised his hands, then he lowered his hands again and charged the cop, that is one thing.
If he raised his hands and had them raised when he was shot, then that would seem to be murder to me. I wish the question was clearer. (This may simply be a question of the format of putting lengthy questions into a matrix format). This is a key question, however.


Witness 45 and 46 seem to be not in sync with the other witnesses on most questions.
 
TIDE-HSV

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Tidewater said:
Thanks for that. One interesting question was "Did MB put his hands up when fired upon?" seem ambiguous. If by this you mean, MB was fired upon, then he raised his hands, then he lowered his hands again and charged the cop, that is one thing.
If he raised his hands and had them raised when he was shot, then that would seem to be murder to me. I wish the question was clearer. (This may simply be a question of the format of putting lengthy questions into a matrix format). This is a key question, however.


Witness 45 and 46 seem to be not in sync with the other witnesses on most questions.
Click to expand...
As long as he was moving towards the officer, his "hands up" posture means absolutely nothing, for what I would think should be obvious reasons. The command normally given is to "get on the ground" (face down). Any other action constitutes a continuing threat to the LEO...
 
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The paper of record

Before, during and after that first night of violence, few law enforcement officials have done more on the ground to ease the volatility of protesters than Lieutenant Lohr, who is white. And few of his white colleagues have been able to connect with the largely black crowds better than he has.
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