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What does it mean when people say "we must learn to "STOP" the HUNH offenses"?

rgw

rgw

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Re: What does it mean when people say "we must learn to "STOP" the HUNH offenses"?

The way HUNH has changed defense is basically the difference between damage prevention v. damage control. The days of us being able to stifle most offenses may be over but effective defense is still possible. I think the staff can live with conceding a TD and 3 FGs to any offense (they'd prefer the coverage unit not allowing a cheap 7 points though). That is the crux of how you attack these guys. They're gonna get yardage and you aren't going to pitch many shutouts anymore. The key is effective defense from 30 yards and in. Stop the 7s and allow more 3s. The ball control offense has to be working in concert with the defense though.
 
U

uaintn

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Re: What does it mean when people say "we must learn to "STOP" the HUNH offenses"?

And people are becoming more sophisticated about it. Not every team going hurry up is running the same offensive scheme. Turnovers are key, but always have been. One sign we are doing better is that part of the hurry up theory that you will wear down the opposing defense and make them easier to score on in the 4th quarter. That didn't happen yesterday.

Whether having Depriest and Jackson in there yesterday would have made a difference no one can know, but I can't believe they would have made us less good.
 
rgw

rgw

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Re: What does it mean when people say "we must learn to "STOP" the HUNH offenses"?

The early struggles were mostly on the DTs and ILBs not getting on the same page. Once that was corrected, WVU was basically forced to pass every down and that took some of the bite off their attack. Still, we conceded too many jump ball passses yet again. Cyrus Jones held his own but Sylve was humiliated out there. I really hope Eddie Jackson can get into game shape and back into the gameplan before SEC play.
 
twofbyc

twofbyc

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Re: What does it mean when people say "we must learn to "STOP" the HUNH offenses"?

I have only read a few comments about not being able to stop the HUNH, and I find it really a little surprising that some people say you can't. One word: Stanford. Against arguably one of the best HUNH's in existence, two years in a row. Look at those two games and then tell me HUNH's can't be stopped. They can. Shutout? No way, and I'm not even remotely hinting at that - but they can be held under 28 points, even under 21 points. It has been done so to say it can't be done is also to say it has never been done, and that's just wrong. Auburn only had 17 points against MSU until 10 seconds left in the game last year. It's all about 1) personnel and 2) practice. Seems like some fans (and coaches, too) are getting on the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" bandwagon. I don't see myself joining that group.
 
twofbyc

twofbyc

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Re: What does it mean when people say "we must learn to "STOP" the HUNH offenses"?

Bamabuzzard said:
Why didn't we do the same?
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According to Jonathan Allen, WVU showed some formations Bama hadn't seen, thus probably had not prepared for; just relaying what he was quoted as saying. This came from BOL, IIRC.
 
theballguy

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Re: What does it mean when people say "we must learn to "STOP" the HUNH offenses"?

crimsonaudio said:
I'd like to see someone list of defenses that have consistently 'stopped' the HUNH teams.

Like any other offensive revolution, the defenses will catch up, but for now - people asking when 'we' will learn need to point out a defense that's learned how to do it.
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LSU's defenses have been probably the most consistent of any I have seen in the last few years (*EDIT and I did overlook Stanford). AND ... We've actually been a lot better at this than the media reports. "The Media" does not watch most games through that they report about. They simply look at scores and sometimes they do some homework and look at stats but rarely do they watch an entire game. They are as used to seeing Bama's defense put the stop on teams as we are. So, all of us have gotten a bit spoiled and our expectations are out of whack.

I remember last season the media made a lot of negative comments after we beat Texas A&M last season. They couldn't stop talking about our defense giving up 500+ yards. Still, we ended up winning in College Station against Johnny Football. Our defense still played very well going forward. When you play against a HUNH offense it's very similar to pitching at Coors Field. Instead of getting upset at your starting pitcher giving up 4-5 runs there, you change your expectations and only get concerned when the opposing team scores 7-8 runs. In a similar fashion, HUNH and pro-style offenses are very different. The way we defend against either of these has to be different too.

We should know enough by now to level our expectations accordingly.
 
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theballguy

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Re: What does it mean when people say "we must learn to "STOP" the HUNH offenses"?

twofbyc said:
I have only read a few comments about not being able to stop the HUNH, and I find it really a little surprising that some people say you can't. One word: Stanford. Against arguably one of the best HUNH's in existence, two years in a row. Look at those two games and then tell me HUNH's can't be stopped. They can. Shutout? No way, and I'm not even remotely hinting at that - but they can be held under 28 points, even under 21 points. It has been done so to say it can't be done is also to say it has never been done, and that's just wrong. Auburn only had 17 points against MSU until 10 seconds left in the game last year. It's all about 1) personnel and 2) practice. Seems like some fans (and coaches, too) are getting on the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" bandwagon. I don't see myself joining that group.
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I'm not opposed to Bama going HUNH if that's where our offensive personnel excel.
 
Bamabuzzard

Bamabuzzard

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Re: What does it mean when people say "we must learn to "STOP" the HUNH offenses"?

theballguy said:
Why worry over things that didn't happen though? Surely, CNS and CKS will address these areas.
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Personally I'm not worrying about it. Just pointing out that our defense struggled with this type offense again. It doesn't matter until it matters. I guess yesterday it didn't matter. But I can promise you at some point this season it will matter.
 
theballguy

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Re: What does it mean when people say "we must learn to "STOP" the HUNH offenses"?

Bamabuzzard said:
Personally I'm not worrying about it. Just pointing out that our defense struggled with this type offense again. It doesn't matter until it matters. I guess yesterday it didn't matter. But I can promise you at some point this season it will matter.
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Sorry BB. That was a stupid post on my part.
 
B

BigBama76

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Re: What does it mean when people say "we must learn to "STOP" the HUNH offenses"?

I think folks are talking about two different things here. First of all people keep referring to HUNH as if it were an actual offense. It's not. It's a "tactic" that is allowed in the rules. Basically HUNH is an extension of the 2 minute drill throughout the whole game rather than 2 minutes before the half or end of a close game.

Coaches and teams that employ it are using the rules to keep defenses from substituting when they'd like to. Rather than huddling the teams are lining up at the line of scrimmage AS IF they intend to initiate play. Of course what they really do is receive the play from the sideline while "appearing" to be ready for the next play and rapidly moving into their offensive set once they know the play. The additional effect of this "tactic" is it freezes and confuses the defense since defenses usually try to adjust their stunts, blitzes and secondary based on offensive formation. The only way this "tactic" is stopped in its present form is through rule change.

Now, if we're talking about stopping prolific offenses whether they be run or pass oriented, that's a different discussion. A lot of people ooh and ahh over these offenses as if they've never been seen before.

I might remind folks that during Bama's wishbone days we usually averaged well over 300 yds rushing per game. In fact, in 1973 we averaged 366 yds per game. AU averaged 324 yds per game last year. All the wishbone teams back in the day regularly ran for well over 300 yds per game. The few using that offense today still average those kind of numbers. Air Force ran for over 500 Saturday.

In the past we've had high powered passing teams. The 1969 Alabama vs Ole Miss, which was the first college game ever televised during "prime time", set the NCAA record for single game offense of 1100 yds that stood for decades. Spurrier's Florida teams could pass pretty well to but got demolished by a power running team, Nebraska.

The point is, stopping a high powered offense, if you have the players, is a known quantity. What CNS and every other defensive minded coach is going to have to deal with is how the "tactic" affects their defense and adjust accordingly. That may mean simplifying your defense so it is easier to be in position once the play is run. It also means that your defense HAS to play fundamentally sound defense, which is maintaining discipline and tackling well.
 
crimsonaudio

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Re: What does it mean when people say "we must learn to "STOP" the HUNH offenses"?

BigBama76 said:
First of all people keep referring to HUNH as if it were an actual offense. It's not. It's a "tactic" that is allowed in the rules.
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Yah, much like the spread - people use the term as if it describes an offensive system but it doesn't - it's simply an alignment used that certain offense systems can better take advantage of.
 
J

jdua

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Re: What does it mean when people say "we must learn to "STOP" the HUNH offenses"?

BigBama76 said:
I think folks are talking about two different things here. First of all people keep referring to HUNH as if it were an actual offense. It's not. It's a "tactic" that is allowed in the rules. Basically HUNH is an extension of the 2 minute drill throughout the whole game rather than 2 minutes before the half or end of a close game.

Coaches and teams that employ it are using the rules to keep defenses from substituting when they'd like to. Rather than huddling the teams are lining up at the line of scrimmage AS IF they intend to initiate play. Of course what they really do is receive the play from the sideline while "appearing" to be ready for the next play and rapidly moving into their offensive set once they know the play. The additional effect of this "tactic" is it freezes and confuses the defense since defenses usually try to adjust their stunts, blitzes and secondary based on offensive formation. The only way this "tactic" is stopped in its present form is through rule change.

Now, if we're talking about stopping prolific offenses whether they be run or pass oriented, that's a different discussion. A lot of people ooh and ahh over these offenses as if they've never been seen before.

I might remind folks that during Bama's wishbone days we usually averaged well over 300 yds rushing per game. In fact, in 1973 we averaged 366 yds per game. AU averaged 324 yds per game last year. All the wishbone teams back in the day regularly ran for well over 300 yds per game. The few using that offense today still average those kind of numbers. Air Force ran for over 500 Saturday.

In the past we've had high powered passing teams. The 1969 Alabama vs Ole Miss, which was the first college game ever televised during "prime time", set the NCAA record for single game offense of 1100 yds that stood for decades. Spurrier's Florida teams could pass pretty well to but got demolished by a power running team, Nebraska.

The point is, stopping a high powered offense, if you have the players, is a known quantity. What CNS and every other defensive minded coach is going to have to deal with is how the "tactic" affects their defense and adjust accordingly. That may mean simplifying your defense so it is easier to be in position once the play is run. It also means that your defense HAS to play fundamentally sound defense, which is maintaining discipline and tackling well.
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That seems exactly right. My slight despondency stems from the fact that Coach Saban and Coach Kirby are as good, if not better, than any defensive coaches in the country. I was really curious to see if the defensive coaches around the nation had come to terms with the HUNH this year. If our guys have yet to satisfactorily (for them) figure out a way to effectively slow these offenses down, then I believe it is due to the imbalance in the rules (blocking, 40" clock, etc) between the offense and defense and there may simply be no answer for it within the parameters of the current game. These games no longer seem like fair contests between the offense and defense.....leaning 60/40 offense, maybe. I think the imbalance will exist until the rules are brought more in line to give the defenses a fair shot. I have nothing against great, innovative offenses (fun to watch), but it is the "hurry up" aspect that just looks and feels like a Chinese Fire Drill. The offenses still have what amounts to a huddle (think meerkat), while the defenses do not. In all honesty, it seems like they took the 40 second clock idea and used it in an unsportsmanlike way...... If the offensive ideas are so great, why do they need the added advantage of not letting the defense prepare?
 
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Re: What does it mean when people say "we must learn to "STOP" the HUNH offenses"?

jdua said:
That seems exactly right. My slight despondency stems from the fact that Coach Saban and Coach Kirby are as good, if not better, than any defensive coaches in the country. I was really curious to see if the defensive coaches around the nation had come to terms with the HUNH this year. If our guys have yet to satisfactorily (for them) figure out a way to effectively slow these offenses down, then I believe it is due to the imbalance in the rules (blocking, 40" clock, etc) between the offense and defense and there may simply be no answer for it within the parameters of the current game. These games no longer seem like fair contests between the offense and defense.....leaning 60/40 offense, maybe. I think the imbalance will exist until the rules are brought more in line to give the defenses a fair shot. I have nothing against great, innovative offenses (fun to watch), but it is the "hurry up" aspect that just looks and feels like a Chinese Fire Drill. The offenses still have what amounts to a huddle (think meerkat), while the defenses do not. In all honesty, it seems like they took the 40 second clock idea and used it in an unsportsmanlike way...... If the offensive ideas are so great, why do they need the added advantage of not letting the defense prepare?
Click to expand...
The congregation says "Ahmen".
 
twofbyc

twofbyc

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Re: What does it mean when people say "we must learn to "STOP" the HUNH offenses"?

crimsonaudio said:
Yah, much like the spread - people use the term as if it describes an offensive system but it doesn't - it's simply an alignment used that certain offense systems can better take advantage of.
Click to expand...
Fair enough. So someone who knows please define the offenses run by A&M, Barn, WVU, Oregon, Ol Spit (all HUNH's), explaining their differences. Most of the time I am looking at Bama's defensive play anyway, so I wouldn't know. The running plays mostly look like read-options to me, and obviously certain teams seem to throw shorter consistently (that may be because of personnel or maybe their offensive game plan, don't know).
 
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Re: What does it mean when people say "we must learn to "STOP" the HUNH offenses"?

twofbyc said:
Fair enough. So someone who knows please define the offenses run by A&M, Barn, WVU, Oregon, Ol Spit (all HUNH's), explaining their differences. Most of the time I am looking at Bama's defensive play anyway, so I wouldn't know. The running plays mostly look like read-options to me, and obviously certain teams seem to throw shorter consistently (that may be because of personnel or maybe their offensive game plan, don't know).
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certainly not an X's and O's answer, but it seems the primary two forms of offense that utilize a HUNH approach are the spread and the read option. but the spread and the read option can have many variants and teams often utilize them interchangeably it seems.

that said, i guess you could run HUNH in any kind of offense.
 
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Re: What does it mean when people say "we must learn to "STOP" the HUNH offenses"?

BigBama76 said:
That may mean simplifying your defense so it is easier to be in position once the play is run. It also means that your defense HAS to play fundamentally sound defense, which is maintaining discipline and tackling well.
Click to expand...
Very good point. The easy part for the type of Offense that Auburn and Aggie run is that there are so many different plays that all come out of the same formation. Also, since every play is technically the same formation, the D has no real clue if it is pass or run and furthermore, if it is run, who is getting the ball. Then you had in the HUNH element with quick snaps and no subs and you have a D that can look like a bunch of winded kids at school recess trying to make split second decisions against an Offense that knows exactly what it is doing.

The only thing you can do is like you said, play sound fundamentals, maintain your gaps, and hope you have enough cardio if they pick up a 1rst Down.
 
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