Bruce Jenner Update

The more I think about this, the more ridiculous it becomes.

If someone had a gambling disorder, you wouldn't take them to a casino.

If someone had an eating disorder where the went on eating binges, you wouldn't take them to an all you can eat buffet.

If someone had a sexual disorder, you wouldn't take them to a brothel.

But if someone has a gender identity disorder, you encourage their behavior? You tell them to give in and let their disorder take over? Seriously?

Bruce Jenner is getting an award for courage because he gave in to his disorder. This would be the equivalent of Tiger Woods getting an award for outstanding courage because he slept with 20 porn stars while he was still married. When you think about how absurd this all is, it becomes a whole different level of weird.

crimsonaudio said:

It's beyond ludicrous.

What's worse, is he can play dress-up and have all the surgery he wants, yet he's still a male. Nothing will ever change that - it's literally part of his DNA. What a freak show.

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Being a male or female is not exclusively all XY or XX

RedStar said:

So Jenner won the Arthur Ashe Courage Award and will presented with the trophy at the next ESPY's.

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Definitely worthy.
I mean, there was Lauren Hill, the college basketball player who died from brain cancer - and she decided to continue playing in spite of it. Yes, she passed away, but they've given this award posthumously before.
There is Eric Berry, a 3-time Pro-Bowler who was diagnosed with Hodgkins Lymphoma.
There is Devon Still whose three year old daughter has cancer.
Probably a hundred other great examples I can't think of right now. Stuart Scott comes to mind.

But, yeah, Jenner has shown courage. What a hero.

Here's a list of the most recent Arthur Ashe Award winners:
2015 - Jenner (transgendered)
2014 - Michael Sam (gay)
2013 - Robin Roberts (ESPN reporter suffering from breast cancer and myelodysplastic syndrome)
2012 - Pat Summitt (icon suffering from Alzheimer's)
2011 - Dewey Bozella (wrongfully convicted of murder; released after 26 years in prison)
2010 - Ed Thomas (HS football coach shot and killed by a former player)

crimsonaudio said:

Actually, it is. Unless he has someone incredibly rare syndrome.

He can feel however he feels, but his DNA is male.

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His DNA is male, XY, and always will be. My point is that there are other physical things that go on inside the womb that go to producing a "male" or "female" person. Normally they all line up but in rare cases, maybe his, things go wrong. How a person sees him/herself can be determined by hormonal factors that occur while still in the womb and override xx xy.
I have no idea his situation is but it seems more likely than not that his issues were physical in origin.

crimsonaudio said:

I'm aware, Earle - Im simply pointing out that we have zero evidence of this with regards to Jenner's case - Bamaro just really, really wants to believe it to be true.

I simply stated facts - his DNA means he's male and no amount of surgery or hormones will change that.

ETA - I also mentioned his having 'peace' - it's worth noting that transgendered people have a suicide rate of over 10x that of the normal population. He's just as unlikely to find peace as he is to be considered a normal female by a vast majority of the population. It is what it is.

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I dont "really wants to believe it to be true" at all. I dont really care what he does. I am simply saying that before someone judges his decision adversely they should do some research on what actually determines gender identity. Like I said earlier its not all simply in the chromosomes for a few. And if transgendered people have a 10x greater suicide rate, that to me points more strongly to a physical based problem - they cant control it, they were born that way.

Edit - This is not about trying to be politically correct. Its simply about trying to be medically correct.

GreatDanish said:

Definitely worthy.
I mean, there was Lauren Hill, the college basketball player who died from brain cancer - and she decided to continue playing in spite of it. Yes, she passed away, but they've given this award posthumously before.
There is Eric Berry, a 3-time Pro-Bowler who was diagnosed with Hodgkins Lymphoma.
There is Devon Still whose three year old daughter has cancer.
Probably a hundred other great examples I can't think of right now. Stuart Scott comes to mind.

But, yeah, Jenner has shown courage. What a hero.

Here's a list of the most recent Arthur Ashe Award winners:
2015 - Jenner (transgendered)
2014 - Michael Sam (gay)
2013 - Robin Roberts (ESPN reporter suffering from breast cancer and myelodysplastic syndrome)
2012 - Pat Summitt (icon suffering from Alzheimer's)
2011 - Dewey Bozella (wrongfully convicted of murder; released after 26 years in prison)
2010 - Ed Thomas (HS football coach shot and killed by a former player)

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Two points:

1) Robin Roberts is also gay (though to be fair, the award APPEARS to have been given on the basis of her cancer fight; given the PC'ness of this world, who really knows?)

2) The ESPYs are a sick joke anyway except for the fact they raise money (supposedly) for cancer cure.

Furthermore, at the risk of getting hit with proverbial baseball bats, I don't exactly see why Arthur Ashe is considered our model of "courage," either. Not to rip on Ashe at all, who is long gone and not here to defend himself, but it's not like he came out as gay BACK THEN (a whole different animal) - because as far as we know, he wasn't - and announced he had AIDS. THAT would have been a monument to courage back in 1993. He instead hid the fact he had the disease (again, I have no problem with him maintaining his privacy and it was disgusting that it was made public the way it was) and only acknowledged it when it was going to be news anyway (sorta like Freddie Mercury and Magic Johnson). Billie Jean King - for example - might have made a better one to name the courage award at that time (although even her revelation came through litigation) as she had been blazing trails both for women's tennis and gay rights for years by 1993.

Why did they pick Ashe? I'm sure it's because: a) he was black; b) he was dying of what was thought at the time to be the return of the Plague; and c) he was a kind-hearted fella to all who knew him; and d) they wanted to be identified with minority rights (remember - this was RIGHT AT THE TIME that Marge Schott had been suspended for racist remarks for the 1993 season; plus, AIDS was in vogue at the time hot off the heels of the diagnosis of Magic Johnson coupled with the deaths of Robert Reed and Freddie Mercury....it was the PC disease of the time.

My point, which I went all the way around the world to make, is not that Ashe was a bad guy - but mostly that the ESPYs have been a sick joke from Day One anyway. That first year speech by Jimmy V was truly awesome; I've watched it maybe twice since then and it's ludicrous.

And with ESPN, you can bet it's all PR anyway.

Jenner getting an award that's a sick joke qualifies as a punch line that writes itself.


In addition to this, Jenner is not going to find "peace" I'm afraid. I wish him/her the best but it's sorta like personal happiness - ultimately, we are responsible for our own contentment. Yes, we can have bad days or times - even long-lasting - but it's still on us ultimately.

[apparently he is also a conservative christian. i wonder if he will insert himself into the primary fracas[/QUOTE]


Jenner graduated from Graceland University (no Elvis jokes) in Iowa. This is a split off the Mormon church. It was called Reorganized Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Independence, Missouri and is now known as Community of Christ.

If Jenner considers him/herself a conservative Christain, maybe he has not read Romans chapter 1.

crimsonaudio said:

Actually, it is. Unless he has someone incredibly rare syndrome.

He can feel however he feels, but his DNA is male.

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*** DING ***

Bamaro said:

I dont "really wants to believe it to be true" at all. I dont really care what he does. I am simply saying that before someone judges his decision adversely they should do some research on what actually determines gender identity. Like I said earlier its not all simply in the chromosomes for a few. And if transgendered people have a 10x greater suicide rate, that to me points more strongly to a physical based problem - they cant control it, they were born that way.

Edit - This is not about trying to be politically correct. Its simply about trying to be medically correct.

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Would you characterized being born this way (i.e. the Jenner way) as normal or abnormal?

Tide1986 said:

Would you characterized being born this way (i.e. the Jenner way) as normal or abnormal?

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Those terms can have negative connotations so I would say he statistically is on the edge of the normal curve (aka abnormal)

TIDE-HSV said:

If I were Mama Kardashian, I'd be wondering what was really going through his mind, all those years they were having sex. Puzzling to me is that he had already started on hormone therapy when he met her and went off them. Unless he told her, I consider that to be profoundly dishonest...

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As long as the end result is a camera pointed in her general direction, I don't think she gives a crap.